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 Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/10/03 10:12 am)
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ezSupporter
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Vranthis - Combat or RP?
First off, expect a huge update tonight in my log (for those who care anyway) for the first session in the CRM. We've actually had three total, and I am currently working on the second, and the third log update is done. Fwiw, with the 3.5 updates coming along, I convinced my players to each do a single session log for 200xp each. They have to do them in character, so they should be fun.
Back to the topic of this thread, however, this Saturday they will encounter Vranthis. They have travelled down the western cart track (amazingly avoiding the basilisk), then switched to the eastern track when it starting dropping down (at the stairs). They got to the pit area, saw the ladders, yet continued. They encountered Marlgrann, paid up, and left peacefully. They fought the ochre jelly (-ies by the time it was all done) and we stopped as they saw the platform.
Questions:
1. I was thinking of modifying some of Vranthis's feats. I really don't like sunder personally. Anyone else modify Vranthis and can offer up suggestions (any of the normal splatbooks, BoVD, Savage Species, and Psionics H are fair game)?
2. I would've preferred it be mainly an RP encounter, turning bad if necessary, but the module specifically states that Vranthis attacks people who investigate his platform. How would you advise this encounter go if I were to make it RP? i.e. What does Vranthis want? If necessary, we can assume he has heard the conversation with Marlgran, or not.
3. What are Vranthis's tactics to use in a fight? As he approaches the area, the archer has levitated to the top of the platform and the rest are in the northeast passage (towards the water). The archer has a continual flame and one other person in the party has a continual flame.
Thanks!
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Offgall Fizziwigg
Faen
(7/10/03 11:56 am)
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
I don't have a good answer for #1 yet.
2. What does Vranthis want? I would say he wants loot. He also wants to protect his loot. I figure he would either kill the party, or let them pass if they paid a hefty sum, which it sounds like they did to get past Marlgrann. You can tell that loot is his motivation by the nasty trap he has guarding his loot. If you wanted to role-play, I would say to have him threaten the group if they do not pay up. I would also have Marlgrann tail the PCs. He let them pass, but he would probably be interested in what Vranthis will do. I think if the PCs fought Vranthis, Marlgrann would likely attack the PCs from behind. His word is no good. Then he could claim more of their treasure. The module seems to paint these two as pals. They fight together and ambush intruders they hear coming.
3. I would knock off anyone on the platform. Then I would breathe on the ones on the ground. Then you could snatch them and drop them from the ceiling of the cavern. If things go badly, have him retreat and get aide from Marlgrann, if Marlgrann is not helping already. It seems to me though that Marlgrann would help Vranthis kill the PCs. The only reason he would have let the PCs go would be that he couldn't kill them all without putting his own life in danger. I think he would be confident that if he and Vranthis teamed up, they could kill them and split the treasure.
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Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/10/03 12:49 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
"I figure he would either kill the party, or let them pass if they paid a hefty sum, which it sounds like they did to get past Marlgrann."
Actually, they paid very little to get past him. I think the module says that he accepts money from CRM inhabitants to get past and I can't think they'd be able to pay a hefty sum. I put it at 10gp each, though apparently I accidentally said 10gp total. I'm gonna see if I can't correct that this Saturday. In any case, it really confused the party and IMO worked even better than some exhorbitant amount. They were saying, "10gp? That's all? Give it to him, and let's get out of here!" They were very scared of Marlgran and particularly Rusty.
I like your reaffirmation of the bond between Vranthis and Marlgran. Maybe I'll have Marlgran go up the ladder and talk to "Vantiss" about the passersby, which will put him in a good place to join the fight. That will be a real nasty fight, too, but my high level, high magicked party should handle it. I'm thinking Vranthis would allow the party to continue unmolested for about 100gp each (including the horse and animal companion) or comparable treasure.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(7/10/03 7:56 pm)
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
In previous threads people have keyed in on Vranthis' high Knowledge (Religion) skill. This makes it quite plausible that Vranthis is interested in the cult of the EEE, or the fanes for whatever reason. Maybe Vranthis sees the cult as a path to power... Maybe he is looking for a cushy gig like Chymon's, and to throw his lot in with a temple so that he can he can learn more about them. Or maybe he knows about Big T somehow and wants to stop them. A mutually beneficial arrangement in which the players feed Vranthis information about the cult could easily come about, but the players should definitely have the feeling they are dealing with an evil and capricious creature that isn't to be trusted. Another benefit of this approach is that it would make the players pay more attention to the details about the cult, and maybe even question the cultists more than they usually would, if they are bringing the information to Vranthis.
Another kind of random possibility for #2 is that Chymon killed one of Vranthis' parents years ago and now that Vranthis thinks he is large enough, he is looking for revenge. Vranthis learned through a diviner that Chymon was located in this area, which is why he moved his lair to the CRM.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(7/10/03 8:05 pm)
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Vranthis tactics
Forgot to answer the other two suggestions...
Feat suggestions would be Hover or Wingover... To increase maneouverability in the narrow areas of the mines.
Tactics. If Vranthis doesn't care to parley and is just looking for a fight... Obviously buff up with mage armor and spider climb first, then...
He would probably open up with breath weapon, trying to get as many PCs as possible in the area of effect, priority given to any arcane casters and then to the levitating member. Then fly up to a wall or ceiling well out of the reach of the PCs, walk around the ceiling to use the tower for cover from missile attacks while staying on full defense. Full defense plus mage armor should give V a respectable AC 30, not counting cover. Wait for breath weapon to recharge and use again.
If Vranthis is looking to parley, parley from well out of the party's reach with spider climb.
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Technomadic
Human
(7/10/03 11:09 pm)
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Vranthis & the Earth Temple
IMC, Vranthis just chased the party out into the Stalagos. He appeared just after they'd sliced up the jelly(s) and they, realizing they were in no way prepared to fight a dragon, turned tail and swam.
Right now they're sitting on a sandbar out in the rain, watching the lightning flash down from the sky and up from the towers and just generally being miserable.
Vranthis could very easily head out there and finish them off, leaving me with a similar conundrum: RP or combat?
I think I'm going to have Vranthis be allied with the Earth Temple- he's on the border between them and the Air Temple. Maybe he's the southern guard against incursions from the Air Temple. Moolowik just spoke to the party about helping out with the raid against the Fire Temple, and I think I'll have Vranthis talk to them about it.
The Earth Temple is still reeling from the beating it took from the Fire Temple. I think Vranthis might offer them help in the form of some minor items or information, but also ask them to betray the Water Temple. An interesting nest of betrayal. The party will help the Water Temple attack the Fire Temple, then leave perhaps another Girallon sort of item in the Water Temple to knock them for a loop once the damage is done over in the land of flames.
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Siobharek 
Verrik
(7/11/03 1:31 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Vranthis & the Earth Temple
IMC, I was prepared to let Vranthis act like the mentor from Hell. He is in fact keen on having something done about the cult, and the PCs are the perfect pawns.
I also boosted Marlgran and made him a half-dragon off-spring of his. With a hat of disguise, he was able to gather some intelligence for Vranthis, but not enough for him to be able to take any decisive action.
So I was prepared to have the PCs and he become allies of sorts. Unfortunately, my players are sometimes a little trigger-happy, so...
Other than that, I agree with the manoueverbility feats.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
madfox
Verrik
(7/11/03 2:41 am)
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Re: Vranthis & the Earth Temple
Personally I would go for RP. Then again, I think there are more then enough oppertunities for combat and role-playing the encounter would be a nice change of pace. Besides, giving Vranthis a reason to stay in the temple makes his pressence so much more logical. I still regret the fact that in the first campaign Vranthis attacked without provocation or warning. It was a great fight, but I still think that role-playing it would have been more fun. Especially since later on some of the players began to complain about the number of fights.
Of course, in my campaign I have the benefit that the cult of Tiamat has a powerful role in the local region with humanoids as members and actual clerics. Tiamat's cult wants to rule the world and hence the cult is opposed to the Temple of Elemental Evil. So in my campaign big U already 'recruited' the PCs (as in - I kill you all unless you want to do something for me) and now they are also looking for an orb of dragonkind for the Cult in the Banewarrens. So making Vranthis an agent of this cult spying upon the temple is so much easier 
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Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/14/03 8:19 am)
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ezSupporter
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Update
Okay, so I tried to do the RP angle...no dice. My group did not want it. Big V started the discussion, then the group started acting, getting really worried in the large room and not being able to see anything. Big V didn't cater to their hostile actions and decided to lay the smack down while he had the upper hand. It was a slightly modified Big V (not boosted though I was SORELY tempted), CR "7" dragon, vs a nearly fully rested party consisting of a dwarven cleric 7 of Moradin (dwarven plate), a human fighter 6/OotBI 2 (chain mail of invulnerability), a halfling druid 8 (advanced, awakened boar animal companion), Xaod paladin 5 (Thunder, heavy warhorse bonded mount), elven wizard 5/fatespinner 2, elven sorcerer 6/dragon disciple 2, and a human fighter 7.
It was an even match. It was only through bad rolls and spring attack from the pure fighter that the party actually defeated Big V. If Big V had healing potions in his treasure hoard, he would have likely won. Xaod was killed, though his horse survived. Big V got off no less than 4 breath weapons through the fight, which lasted over 20 rounds and ended up with Big V heading back to his room and activate the fiendish girallon trap. Sylvan tried to dispel the girallon three times (one of those was using his change fate), but failed. The biggest thorn in Big V's side was that darn faerie fire from the druid. Big V eventually escaped (at around 30 hp), yelling out in goblin to Marlgran. They will set up an ambush in the pit room, should the group head that way.
PS Vranthis's adjustments:
Spells: no light, resistance, read magic, detect magic, shield, spider climb.
Feats: power attack, expertise, vile natural attack (bite), improved critical (bite).
Skills: changed escape artist to tumble (cross-class purchased, total bonus +7 I believe). This is mostly due to my house rule of opposed tumble checks. The bow initiate tumbled twice out of range, requiring opposed tumble checks. He scared the crap out of him when he made the DC 15 and then I said, "Okay, good job. Now let me see if you beat his opposed tumble..." The group's reply, "The dragon has tumble?! Holy ..."
Infiniti2000, who can be a right bastage.
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Offgall Fizziwigg
Faen
(7/14/03 8:33 am)
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
Too bad that they didn't want to parley. Looks like they had an insane fight, though. I was uncertain, though, where the fight took place. I thought Marlgrann's lair was before Vranthis if you are traveling from the main gate. Did the PCs travel from the other direction, or was Vranthis out and about wandering.
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Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/18/03 1:06 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
Hey Offgall, sorry about the delayed response. I must have missed this thread. The fight started in the room with the platform. As the party moved up from the northeast passage from the riverbank, the archer stepped forward and levitated to the platform (via the wizard's levitate). When he got to the top, Vranthis tried to talk to them, but the group wanted action. Vranthis had the upper hand and could not let the opportunity go, so he attacked and then gave his warning to put down their weapons. Alas, no righteous party would ever put down their weapons, so the fight was on.
After getting hit by the faerie fire and after three breath weapons, Vranthis went back to his lair and waited by the triangle, listening the party. He was hoping that they would leave him alone. They did not. So, he prepped again (another resistance, shield, and no light) and waited. He breathed again and then moved back to hit the cermamic pyramid. The fighter used spring attack so that neither he nor the girallon got more than one attack per round. The archer kept tumbling as he was getting pummeled. The group was pretty pissed about Xaod getting killed. Vranthis, at 30hp or so, and when the Girallon was killed, high-tailed it out the north/south tunnel to the pit room, down the pit and into Marlgran's lair to get help. They will set up an ambush and wait. Vranthis will hang back, though, because he's not fully healed yet. He plans on buffing up Marlgran though, and putting spider climb on the rust monster. If pressed again, he will flee and look for help from a temple, gaining healing in exchange for some amount of service.
Moolowik saw the battle and will still try to get the group to join the water temple raid on the fire temple.
If anyone has additional tactics for Marlgran, Rusty, or Vranthis, please let me know here. The group has yet to encounter the basilisk, so if there's anyway you think I might include it in this.... Also, I totally forgot about the green slime in the stairs in area 20, so are there any alternate locations or can Vranthis use it as a trap somehow?
Thanks!
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madfox
Verrik
(7/18/03 1:54 pm)
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
If you are going to convert, wait till after this fight Spider climb has become a 2nd level spell, but the thought of a spider climbing rustmonster is just too good. Now if only we could make it invisible with a greater invisibility 
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Jesse Lowe
Human
(7/19/03 5:48 am)
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
I'm in a similar situation -- I'd like my players to negotiate with Vranthis, rather than fight him. Mostly, this is because they'd spank him -- by the time they get there, they'll probably be level 9, and they're all rather vigorous dwarves trying to reclaim the mines. Any suggestions on why dwarves would negotiate with a green dragon in "their" mine? (I may just boost him a bit, taking into account the 3.5 revisions, but I'd rather not do that...)
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Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/19/03 8:50 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
Arggh! Vranthis has to have spider climb! He's already used it! Oh well, I'm sure my players will understand. Rusty has a great Hide check, and he will be further aided by the no light from Vranthis, so the invisibility is not so necessary. Vranthis, however, will organize the attack and will order Marlgran to make Rusty attack the archer or the dwarf. The players will be scared out of their boots. Marlgran will then take on the fighter and the boar while Vranthis takes on the spell casters, or whoever's near the exit so that he can make a quick escape into the Stalagos.
Jesse, Vranthis is still tough. Don't boost him, just use good tactics. With shield and no light, it made him very difficult to find at first and impossible to pin down, allowing him to get off two breath weapons before he was even targeted. He will definitely use the pyramid trap as soon as possible, and although it doesn't specify, I had the fiendish girallon appear immediately as opposed to a full round casting time. Hand-to-hand with the girallon is nasty. Also remember that it has darkvision and can use the no light as well. Another point is that Vranthis and Marlgran are "buddies" and that ups the EL significantly.
Anyway, dwarves might negotiate with a green dragon because (1) they might not even know its a green dragon off the bat because they will not see it first, (2) no one really wants to fight a dragon, (3) the dragon might have a really good proposal to make. I don't remember where your group is, but perhaps Vranthis knows information about the dwarven temple and will provide it to them for help against Chymon or just money. Or, he knows information about an area that the group has not been yet, or he is aware of the Doomdreamers' plans. Remember his huge knowledge (religion) skill bonus.
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msherman
Faen
(7/19/03 10:30 am)
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
Maybe I'm missing some key bit of strategy, but how is Spider Climb useful to a Dragon who can fly?
BTW, Infiniti, I replied to your "Arggh!" comment in another thread (entitled "3.5 Radiation Incident").
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Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/19/03 1:18 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
"Maybe I'm missing some key bit of strategy, but how is Spider Climb useful to a Dragon who can fly?"
Because Vranthis has poor maneuverability. Even with wingover, he could not do a lot of convenient moving. Moreover, he will make sounds (at least I think so) when flying, but not necessarily when climbing. So, he can fly, say, to the ceiling and cling, turn his neck around and breath. He could also fly from wall to wall, stopping on a dime in order to go in any direction the next round. Even hover isn't as useful as the maneuverability gained from spider climb.
Alas, now I might need to change it out...perhaps back to mage armor (which will offset the shield AC change).
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msherman
Faen
(7/19/03 7:09 pm)
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
Hmm. Maybe I screwed up with Utreshimon, then -- I wasn't really paying attention to maneuverability too much the three times he fought the party. Are there any guidelines to what kind of movement I should allow a dragon with poor maneuverability?
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Trithereon
Verrik
(7/19/03 11:39 pm)
Reply
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
Because of his Hover feat Utreshimon is much more maneuverable in flight then a similar blue dragon without the feat.
Check out the table for flight maneuverability in the DMG. For any creature with average or worse maneuverability they need room to fly. They have to fly at least half speed (which means becoming entangled forces them to double move each round or land). Their turn radius and slope of ascent are also very important aspects to understand when playing cumbersome flyers.
Basically, a big dragon needs quite a bit of room to get off the ground, turn or otherwise maneuver. It can be quite complicated to get a cumbersome flier to straighten out in time to get a good run at characters forcing the DM to think through the flight path in advance to make the best use of them tactically.
Or just ignore all that stuff and assume they all can hover and flit about like a dragonfly.
Edited by: Trithereon at: 7/20/03 1:20 am
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Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/20/03 5:45 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
The DMG has the tactical aerial movement stuff. Admittedly, it's not very clear so it leaves a little room for interpretation. Perhaps the 3.5 DMG is better. As Trithereon points out, the biggest problem is that the dragon needs to move at least half its movement. That amounts to 75ft for Vranthis. Also, again it's not clear, but I think hover was meant to operate somewhat like levitate. Very useful, but it does not change your maneuverability class. I guess I'd allow a dragon to fly off from a hover, but then he'd need to move at least half speed.
"Or just ignore all that stuff and assume they all can hover and flit about like a dragonfly."
And then you gotta let the player do it!  I think the aerial rules are worth learning.
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amerigoV
Faen
(7/20/03 1:08 pm)
Reply
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Re: Vranthis - Combat or RP?
msherman wrote:
Quote:
Maybe I'm missing some key bit of strategy, but how is Spider Climb useful to a Dragon who can fly?
Heh, I found several fun uses for Spider Climb with Vranthis. V was low on HPs, so I had him hit and run more -- if the PCs were bunched together, he would breathe on them. If they separated, he pounced on one and tried to kill the lone PC. Eventually, he got one to negative HPs, and dragged him off (they were in the tunnel between V?s lair and the platform room). The PCs regroup and slowly advance to the platform room. They enter, and at the edge of their torchlight is the PC mysteriously suspended from the side of the platform (V cast Spider Climb on the unconscious PC, then slap him to the side of the Platform). V was lying in wait on the ceiling (again, Spider Climb) to strike the PCs once they entered into the room. Great fun.
Edited by: amerigoV at: 7/20/03 1:09 pm
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