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Author
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Comment
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Admiral Xzar
Faen
(7/26/03 11:56 pm)
Reply
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
andorax,
i found a typo in Estalions stats:
Quote:
~ Because of Spell Focus (Necromancy), the base DC against these spells is 12 + spell level.
i think, this should be:
Quote:
~ Because of Spell Focus (Necromancy), the base DC against these spells is 17 + spell level.
also, there is in the stats of dein incorrect EZCode... (Smite good)
Xzar
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 Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/27/03 9:13 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
Great Work, Andorax! Let me know when you're reading to start on portions of the CRM. 
Question: where are the Space/Reach sections?
Estalion: "divine scrolls of bolts of bedevilment (3)"
Is this one scroll of 3 spells, or 3 scrolls of 1 spell each? I think one scroll is better. On the other hand, I think a wand of otiluke's resilient sphere is better because (a) he has to make a caster level check to use the scrolls of bolts of bedevilment (unlike a wand in the module) and (b) confusion would be a mean choice because no party member would probably be able to cast it (divine confusion).
These issues don't hold for Falrinth, so the scrolls sound okay there.
"Because of the way non-associative levels work, I believe the ogre warriors would be CR 5. CR 3 from being ogres, +(1/2)4 from the NPC class, which are always non-associative."
Say what? The rules in the DMG about CR are pretty clear. Where do you get this associative thing from?
The Second: due to the knowledge (religion), the second gets +2 on turning checks. I think it's a good idea to note this.
"With regards to The Second’s CR, I concluded that Cleric was not considered a “complimentary” class for the Aboleth, and thus only awarded him +4 CR for his 7 Cleric and 1 Doomdreamer levels."
Say what? CR 7 (aboleth) + 8 character levels = CR 15. What book are you guys reading on CR that explains this differently?
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ZansForCans 
Litorian
(7/27/03 10:38 pm)
Reply
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
Quote:
What book are you guys reading on CR that explains this differently?
News to me too: MM v3.5 pg. 294
For the ogres: this sounds about right, especially if you compare it to what advancing a giant by 4 HD does (Table 4-4 on the same page): adds 1 to the CR. Warrior gives them a better BAB progression and free proficiencies for their much better equipment, so the extra 1 CR works out nicely.
As for the Second, I'm not sure I agree with Andorax here. The 10th level Wizard listed in the MM treats Wiz as associated. To me, it looks like the base skills and feats are good choices for a spellcaster, even if the Psionic powers don't stack with Wiz or Clr levels. I don't quite see why Clr should be treated differently than Wiz here. I guess I'm also wary about such a huge change in CR with little mechanics change.
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madfox
Verrik
(7/27/03 11:15 pm)
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
Quote:
Say what? CR 7 (aboleth) + 8 character levels = CR 15. What book are you guys reading on CR that explains this differently?
The monster manual I like these rules because they clearly show that one level of wizard to for example a giant do not really increase the CR by 1. Under most circumstances it is clear what classes are associated and when not, but there are a few grey areas. I think when determining whether a class is associated or not one should concider the primary attack mode of a creature.
The primary tactics of the aboleth are not physical attacks, but mental domination and creating confusion through illusions from far away. Hence the fact that a wizard is an associated class for the aboleth. The aboleth hardly loses a thing by taking wizard levels, but those extra ranged attacks and defensive magics do help. An aboleth would hardly gain anything by taking fighter levels, since his attacks are independend of the use of weapons and armour or weapon-fighting associated feats. Now, in case of the aboleth, the cleric class is such a grey area. At low levels the cleric's main power still is his mix of close combat fighting and defensive magics. Once again, an aboleth gains nothing for the close combat fighting. The defensive magic and good saving throws on the other hand are quite nice.
Mind you, the SRD states the following: "A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability."
An aboleth can cast several wizard spells at will, but no clerical spells. So the rules do support Andorax's conclusion.
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Andorax
Verrik
(7/28/03 6:32 am)
Reply
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
Looks like the Ogre and Aboleth CRs are covered.
As for some of the other issues Infinity2000 brought up:
Quote:
Question: where are the Space/Reach sections?
I'll paste them in...my bad. I have reach listed on some of them, at least...but I probably ought to have the full, proper Space & Reach entry.
Quote:
Estalion: "divine scrolls of bolts of bedevilment (3)"
Is this one scroll of 3 spells, or 3 scrolls of 1 spell each? I think one scroll is better.
Scrolls, plural...three separate scrolls. I could put them all on one if there's a preference for it, though.
Quote:
On the other hand, I think a wand of otiluke's resilient sphere is better because (a) he has to make a caster level check to use the scrolls of bolts of bedevilment (unlike a wand in the module) and (b) confusion would be a mean choice because no party member would probably be able to cast it (divine confusion).
Except that, as I've said over and over (and over) we're not trying to decide on "better" or "more useful" or "the PCs will be able to make use of it". We're doing as literal a conversion as possible, within the limitations of being fully compatable with 3.5E.
Estalion had a magic item (or items) that allowed him multiple additional castings of Bolts of Bedevilment. He's getting that again.
Admiral Xzar, thanks for finding a bigger problem than you realized.
The %)*(#*()%)*#%)( ezcode munched Estalion's entire Sorceror casting block! SF(Necro) is correct in that it grants him 12 + Level...to his Sorceror spells. The statblock had both versions correctly stated...originally.
Off to do some repairs!
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/28/03 6:53 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
"We're doing as literal a conversion as possible, within the limitations of being fully compatable with 3.5E."
True, but we have the orange section there for a reason, to suggest alternatives to align more to the intent of the adventure. To do this, take the approach that you are that character. If you have a wand of BoB (theoretically) that you must give up, what would you trade for it? Pick something(s) of equivalent value and suggest it in orange, while doing as literal a conversion as possible to put in lime within the stat block itself. I thought our plan was to keep the design notes in the document, so future DM's can benefit from the design process to make the best judgment for their individual campaigns. As you go through the conversion, don't deny those DM's your valuable suggestions.
And, since flattery will get you everywhere, let me assure you, Andorax, that your suggestions are quite valuable! 
Of course, if we plan to delete all the orange sections before "going to print" so to speak, then ignore all this, please.
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Andorax
Verrik
(7/28/03 7:00 am)
Reply
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
A valid point. Wand of Otiluke's has been added as an "orange note".
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
ZansForCans
Litorian
(7/28/03 11:55 am)
Reply
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
Quote:
Mind you, the SRD states the following: "A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability."
An aboleth can cast several wizard spells at will, but no clerical spells. So the rules do support Andorax's conclusion.
Hmm, I don't see this. The aboleth's Psionic abilities are not spells. They are cast at will, not per day. They are also Cha-based, not Int, so the associated stat of Wiz classes does not improve the DC of these abilities and the Wiz levels don't stack with the caster level of the abilities (which are already 16th level, having nothing to do with its HD).
Ultimately, these paragraphs about which classes are associated aid to tell you the clear-cut cases that are obviously associated, not necessarily which ones obviously aren't. With the aboleth not being a clear-cut spellcaster (like the rakshasa), no one spell casting class fits the stacking mold, so it comes down to whether the class plays to the strengths in a subjective sense. I would argue that adding any spell casting classes do play to its general strengths (which is not melee). I still see no reason why adding Wiz classes should be associative (which we have a clear example for WotC for) and Clr should not be.
As a side note, although I like these new rules about how to estimate CR, I do wonder a bit about the non-associated rule being a bit to harsh for some examples. Although there certainly is a difference between "levels" of (say) an outsider and levels of Ftr, a melee-only outsider with 4 HD as a base, has a radically different CR when adding 4 levels of Src than a Ftr 4/Src 4 will. The outsider's CR is likely already lower than a Ftr 4 due to lesser quality of racial HD vs. the Ftr. Then it only gains +2 CR for the Src levels whereas the Ftr 4 gains +4. But do Src levels do anything more for the Ftr than a melee-only outsider?
I'm still musing on it, but just wanted to plop down my thinking
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Andorax
Verrik
(7/28/03 12:06 pm)
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
Musing like that will make your head hurt, ZansForCans...we're trying to fix the module, not the 3.5 system ;)
If there's consensus that his 8 Clerical levels are worth a +8 to his CR, then I'll be more than happy to adjust accordingly. However, the way I see it, he's just about the weakest Cleric of the whole lot, and his clerical powers do virtually nothing to make him a more powerful Aboleth (more powerful, yes, but not more "Abolethey" like added HD would, increasing his DCs on his innate powers and such).
I guess there are two questions at hand:
1) Is there a clear-cut rule that nails down which way it should go? If so, we follow it.
2) Assuming #1 fails, we have to resort to "best judgement"...and in my opinion, 8 Cleric levels just don't make The Second worth a CR 15...he's just not that much deadlier than, say, Susain Carun (CR 13) or Thuchos Nalred (CR 12), both of which are wielding far scarier 6th level spells...or even Falrinth (CR 14), who is VERY nasty with his 7ths.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/28/03 12:15 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
"If there's consensus that his 8 Clerical levels are worth a +8 to his CR..."
Please don't take my statement as consensus yet, I have no idea until I read that section in the MM. As a DM, though, I would want to keep the CR at 15, one way or another. i.e. if I thought the CR was really worth only 11, I'd boost the levels up higher until the CR was 15. Therefore, if we change the CR to 11, the suggestion to DM's (IMO) will be to increase his levels appropriately. Dunno the right answer though, as this is a really nasty question.
One other point. Changing the CR is a huge change to the module and adventure. Suddenly, the players will lose a lot of experience they otherwise would have gotten. This is a more drastic change to adding/subtracting treasure from the module due to the 3.5 revision. I think you should point it out in the design section, but not change the CR itself unless the suggestion is to increase the monster's capabilities to be truly CR 15.
I reserve the right to change my mind when I read the actual rules though.
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Andorax
Verrik
(7/28/03 1:04 pm)
Reply
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
As with treasure, there are some changes that will cause the CR to go up, and some to go down...and as I've said before, unless we can show or prove a serious imbalance one way or another, we really do not want to go making arbitrary changes to the adventure itself.
All three dragons gained a +1 bump to their CRs. I don't think they need to be "toned down" either.
Let's look at the whole picture here, and not just single examples, before we settle on a final decision.
Oh, and I wasn't trying to suggest that there was consensus yet...just mentioning that if there IS...
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
ZansForCans
Litorian
(7/28/03 2:06 pm)
Reply
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
Note that I2K's comment was mostly (I think) just that an explicit note (and possible suggestion) be added to the 'orange' section, not that we change the official listing. If not, I don't like the idea of adding levels to the listings, personally.
Quote:
Musing like that will make your head hurt, ZansForCans...we're trying to fix the module, not the 3.5 system
LOL! I just want a system to be consistent... and it was a side note, not really related to what we do here. For that...
Quote:
1) Is there a clear-cut rule that nails down which way it should go? If so, we follow it.
Although I think madfox tried, I haven't been convinced why an Aboleth Mage, with 10 levels of Wizard is CR 17 (MM pg. 9) but one with 8 clerical levels isn't CR 15. To me that is a pretty clear example. Wizard levels don't make the aboleth any more abolethey than Cleric levels do, do they?
Also, since the aboleth's SAs are spell-like, they don't go up with HD advancement anyway: MM pg. 315. Note that this rule conflicts with the general rule on MM pg. 300 slightly by being more specific for spell-like special attacks. The aboleth's DC's match this rule exactly. They are not HD-based.
So, if you advance an aboleth 8 HD, it only is really gaining the basics of progression--which actually follow a cleric's closely. You'd add +2 CR (MM pg. 294) for that 8 HD advancement bringing it up to CR 9.
Now, The Second has slightly better stats than the base aboleth (even taking stat advancement into consideration), likely better than standard aboleth equipment (although I honestly didn't calculate it explicitly), and 8 levels of divine spell casting (all of which could be used as inflict), rebuking undead, and the ability to use items (like the wand it's actually carrying) that normal aboleths can't. Is all that only worth +2 CR?
According to the new guidelines, if this were a hill giant (CR 7) instead of an aboleth, I'd say yeah, maybe. But not an aboleth, who already is relying on spell-like abilities for much of its effect.
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Andorax
Verrik
(7/28/03 2:42 pm)
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
No, it isn't worth just +2 CR (to 9). Which is why it's listed as per the normal (1/2 of added class levels) rule at CR 11 (+4).
I honestly feel that CR 11 is a more honest representation of The Second's *actual* power than CR 15...it always seemed to have a hard time earning that CR, and turned into a nice bonus to PCs, from what I've seen.
Still, I am open to other opinions...just kind of hoping we'll actually hear some of them. What does the rest of the "hivemind" think on this one?
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
ZansForCans
Litorian
(7/28/03 3:47 pm)
Reply
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
Ah sorry, that logic wasn't as clear as I wanted. I meant that since the aboleth and cleric basic progression (BAB, saves, skills) are very similar, are the extra goodies given by cleric levels versus aboleth levels only worth +2.
And still the question remains, what is it about the Cleric levels versus Wizard levels that leads to the change from the Aboleth Mage in the MM?
Edit: added the question bit...
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Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/28/03 5:28 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
After reading through the rules, I'm with you, Andorax. Quite honestly, it's been a long time since I've run a party that high (not since 1e), so I trust your judgment on this one, especially since you've just gone through these encounters with your group.
Another way to look at it is just to think about if an 11th level character can hold his own in a one-on-one against the Second. Chances are yes. An 11th level character gets 6th level spells. Four 11th-level characters might not even burn up the normal 25% resources.
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madfox
Verrik
(7/28/03 11:14 pm)
Reply
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
Quote:
Please don't take my statement as consensus yet, I have no idea until I read that section in the MM. As a DM, though, I would want to keep the CR at 15, one way or another. i.e. if I thought the CR was really worth only 11, I'd boost the levels up higher until the CR was 15. Therefore, if we change the CR to 11, the suggestion to DM's (IMO) will be to increase his levels appropriately. Dunno the right answer though, as this is a really nasty question.
You do realize that you are opening a rather big can of worms? Do you want me to redesign the Vrock in the Inner Fane? Remember, the vrock hardly changed in power, his CR is just descreased by 4 from 13 to 9. He is depicted as a solitary vrock on which the temple people do not realize how powerful he is, so adding a couple of class levels might not be such a bad idea. It would seriously increase the power though compared to the original adventure. What about the dragons?
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msherman
Faen
(7/29/03 5:22 am)
Reply
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
I agree with madfox very strongly; where a monster hasn't changed materially, but the new rules give a different CR, we should leave it as is and just print the new CR in the conversion doc.
One of the hallmarks of this adventure is the mix of ELs; in a given area, it's not at all unusual in the module as written to find ELs ranging widely on either side from the parties expected level (some of which the party really needs to try to avoid rather than fight). So there's no real value in trying to maintain the CRs numerical value just for its own sake, I think. Maintaining the content (the actual monsters, etc) is more important, IMO.
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Infiniti2000
Verrik
(7/29/03 7:21 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
Good points, I humbly retract my comment. I think you are right in that we should not suggest anything grossly deviant from Monte's play-tested version.
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Andorax
Verrik
(8/8/03 11:31 am)
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
Just a note:
Dugart has been edited (substituted Etherealness for Blade Barrier among his 6th level spells).
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Andorax
Verrik
(8/8/03 12:24 pm)
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Re: Recovered Temple Conversion [3.5]
Ok, finally...here's the page by page.
Page 137:
The Other Nodes and Princes
Quote:
...see Monsters by Type (and Subtype), page 4 of the Monster Manual.
Page 138:
Outer Entrance
Quote:
...considerable activity near the well, and tracking (Survival DC 15) can ascertain...
Watcher (EL 7)
Quote:
...halfling in the nearby woods (Hide +10), watching...
Succubus: hp 33; see Monster Manual page 47
Page 139:
Area 2
Quote:
Ogre War4 (4) hp 53, 55, 61, 62; see Appendix 3.
Trond: Male ogre Bbn6; hp 87; see Appendix 3.
Area 3
Quote:
Ogre War4 (4) hp 55, 58, 63, 72; see Appendix 3.
Area 5
Quote:
Greater Earth Elemental: hp 200; see Monster Manual page 98.
Stone Giant: hp 118; see Monster Manual page 124.
Area 7
Quote:
Hobgoblins (10): hp 4 each; AC 11, no armor or weapons; see Monster Manual page 153.
Page 140:
Area 8
Quote:
Ogres (6) hp 27, 28, 29, 29, 30, 31; see Monster Manual page 198.
Area 9
Quote:
Stone Giants (1 or 2) hp 119 each; see Monster Manual page 124.
Area 10
Quote:
...if need be. Using his +1 Large greatsword, he wades into...
Area 13
Quote:
Kex, Beholder hp 70; AC 22; see Monster Manual page 25.
Page 141:
Area 15
Quote:
...hallway to the north, uses her scroll of Invisibility, Greater (remember to make a caster...
Dugart always has magic vestment cast on himself. If he has time to prepare, he casts bull's strength, endurance, freedom of movement, greater magic weapon...
...relying on word of recall to get away if really hurt.
...dagger (worth 300 gp), a scroll of disguise self, and a pouch containing...
Page 142:
Area 16
Quote:
Strike the phrase "He always has Endurance and cat's grace cast on himself."[/font]
...enjoys fighting while under the effects of invisibility, greater, and he prepares...
If Smigmal is a potential target of the former, he might switch...
Page 143:
Area 17
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Hobgoblins (10): hp 4 each; AC 11, no armor or weapons; see Monster Manual page 153.
Ogre hp 29; see Monster Manual page 198.
Area 18
Quote:
Ropers (2) hp 109, 123; see Monster Manual page 215.
Area 19
Quote:
Iron Golem: hp 129; see Monster Manual page 136.
Page 144:
Area 20
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Trunk 4: (Sonic greater glyph, 6d8 sonic damage) Bag with 548 gp, box containing 34 tindertwigs, potion eagle's splendor, Elixor of Vision, and remove disease;...
Area 20A
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Skum (2): hp 10, 14; see Monster Manual page 228.
...crystal vials (each worth 50 gp) that hold elixers of truth and potions of poison, and a watertight...
Page 145:
Area 22
Quote:
Hobgoblins (10): hp 4 each; AC 11, no armor or weapons; see Monster Manual page 153.
Ogres (2) hp 29, 31; see Monster Manual page 198.
Area 23
Quote:
Ogre Ftr6 (7) hp 43, 58, 51, 43, 56, 35, 45; see Appendix 3.
Area 24
Quote:
Rakshasa: hp 52; see Monster Manual page 211.
Strike the phrase "lower their own spell immunity". Creatures are always able to cast through their own spell immunity upon themselves, and need not "lower it"
Page 146:
Area 25
Quote:
Hound Archon: hp 38; see Monster Manual page 16.
Area 27
Quote:
Purple Worm: hp 220; see Monster Manual page 211.
Area 28
Quote:
Estalion has already cast displacement and bear's endurance on both of them...
Strength: 31 (+6 from divine power, +8 from righteous might, +2 from rage).
Constitution: 24 (+4 from bear's endurance, +2 from rage, +4 from righteous might).
Hit Points: 165 (+60 from C, +12...
AC: 35 (+4 from shield of faith, +3 from magic vestment, +3 from righteous might: +4 natural, -1 size).
Attacks: +29/+24/+19 (12th-level fighter progression from divine power, +1 from aid, +4 from divine favor, +8 from Str increase, +3 from greater magic weapon...
Damage: 2d6+17 (increased weapon size from righteous might, +4 from divine favor, +8 from Str increase.
Page 147:
Area 29
Quote:
Ogre: hp 29; 50% miss chance in combat due to blindness; see Monster Manual page 198.
Page 149:
Area 30
Quote:
Large Water Elemental: hp 67; see Monster Manual page 98.
Edited by: Andorax at: 8/14/03 5:28 pm
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