3.5: CRM 15-35 (between Main Gate and West Bridge)

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msherman Faen (7/25/03 7:09 am) Reply	3.5: CRM 15-35 (between Main Gate and West Bridge) Changelog: August 4: Completed section, added Moolowik, edited Marlgran to note vision change August 5: Edited Moolowik to add (unchanged) SA/SQ descriptions, added Changelog to start of thread. August 5 (later): Fixed Moolowik's will save August 10: Added racial Swim bonus to Moolowik's skill block. August 11: More skill changes for Moolowik, per Zans for Cans' suggestions. ----- I'm starting off with a bang.... *Quote:* Page no. 178 Vranthis: Male juvenile green dragon; CR 8; Large dragon (air); HD 14d12+42; hp 133; Init +4; Spd 40 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 40'; AC 22, touch 9, flat-footed 22; Base Atk +14; Grp +22; Atk: Bite +17 melee (2d6+4, 10' reach); Full Atk Bite +17 melee (2d6+4, 10' reach) and 2 Claws +12 melee (1d8+2) and 2 Wings +12 melee (1d6+2) and Tail Slap +12 melee (1d8+6); Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. (10ft. with Bite); SA Breath weapon; SQ Blindsense 60 ft., immune to sleep, paralysis, and acid, keen senses, water breathing; AL LE; SV Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +11; Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14. Skills and Feats: Bluff +17, Concentration +17, Diplomacy +18, Escape Artist +14, Hide -4, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (Religion) +16, Listen +19, Search +19, Spellcraft +9, Spot +19; Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Sunder, Hover Breath Weapon (Su): 40-ft. cone of acid gas, 8d6 points of acid damage, Ref save DC 20 (half). Keen Senses (Ex): Includes darkvision 120 ft, and low-light vision (x2 in normal light, x4 in shadowy illumination). Spells Known (5/4); save DC 12+spell level): 0-arcane mark, detect magic, mage hand, read magic; 1st-mage armor, protection from chaos Vranthis' lair is CRM 27; he typically ranges from CRM 25 to CRM 28. - Dragon challenge ratings have recieved an across the board bump of +1, while their stats have remained mostly the same. This seems to be more a recognition of the reality that Dragon CRs were too low in 3.0 than a material change in the challenge, so Vranthis' age category is unchanged from the module as written. - In 3.0, Dragons received 1+HD/4 feats; in 3.5, they get 1+HD/3 feats. This gives Vranthis one extra feat. I selected Hover for two reasons: with Spider Climb now a 2nd level spell, Vranthis needs some other means of dealing with his poor maneuverability, making either Hover or Wingover ideal; secondly, Hover has changed significantly in 3.5, with the debris cloud only available to large sized dragons. This makes it likely that Utreshimon will be dropping Hover in the conversion process, so Vranthis will be the first "showcase" for the Hover ability in the adventure. There's plenty of debris in the mine caverns and rail tunnels for Vranthis to kick up. - As mentioned, Vranthis has lost access to Spider Climb. Vranthis seems to favor defensive magic over offensive, so I chose Protection From Chaos, which would be effective against both the mad cultists in the temple, and many adventuring parties. - Vranthis is listed as having 5/5 spells per day in the module, but a 1st level Sorcerer with 14 Charisma should only have 5/4. - In 3.0, Dragons with spell casting ability got free Spellcraft ranks (1/hd). This text has been removed from 3.5, and in fact, Spellcraft is missing from the list of class skills. I'm sure that the latter will be corrected in errata, but Zans For Cans notes that at least the Blue dragon does get Spellcraft listed explcitly as a class skill, so perhaps it's an intentional change. Until errata comes out, Vranthis has put 14 points into Spellcraft as a cross-class skill. - By my calculations, Vranthis should have 136 skill points, and it took 126 to get him to the skill levels printed in the module. I used 9 of the remaining 10 points to max out Listen, Search, and Spot as recommended in the Monster Manual, and put the final point in Bluff. - Dragon hordes went from Double Standard in 3.0 to Triple Standard in 3.5, and their CRs went up by 1. DMs may wish to increase the size of Vranthis' horde to match. Argh! Dragons are HARD! Please point out the many errors I'm sure I made. Edited by: msherman at: 8/11/03 4:19 am
Andorax Verrik (7/25/03 7:42 am) Reply	Re: 3.5: CRM 15-35 (between Main Gate and West Bridge) My only comments so far (good call on the Hover, even though Utreshimon will still have it as well): 1) I'd actually recommend Expeditious Retreat, or Jump over Protection from Chaos. You're losing a "mobility" spell, and should probably find another one to replace it...although Protection from Chaos isn't a bad call by any means. 2) Until there IS errata for Spellcraft (which we can then post errata to our update), it isn't on the list, and thus should not be treated as such. We can't make assumptions. 3) Not a comment about your work, but converted dragons in general. Blindsense 60' and Darkvision 120' BITES. I miss my draconic sensory superiority. "Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"
ZansForCans Litorian (7/25/03 8:01 am) Reply	Re: 3.5: CRM 15-35 (between Main Gate and West Bridge) *Quote:* 2) Until there IS errata for Spellcraft (which we can then post errata to our update), it isn't on the list, and thus should not be treated as such. We can't make assumptions. Just checked the SRD on this. Some skills have been moved to the individual variety descriptions. Check the end of the listing for additions to the general dragon list. Different flavored dragons now have slightly different class skill lists. A quick scan shows that only blue dragons (of the chromatics) have Spellcraft as a class skill, so Vanthris does need to be changed. Group Editing & Authoring Support flexible campaign management for the web info :: demo
msherman Faen (7/25/03 9:09 am) Reply	Re: 3.5: CRM 15-35 (between Main Gate and West Bridge) Good eye, Zans. I checked a few colours, incluiding Gold, and didn't see Spellcraft listed as a colour-specific class skill for any that I checked. I think it's _very_ strange that Blue gets Spellcraft as a class skill, but Gold doesn't, but you're right that that's evidence that it was an intentional change. I kept 14 points in spellcraft, which works out to +9 for a cross-class skill (with +2 from int). Also, I took Andorax's advice, and changed the 1st level spell to expeditious retreat.
msherman Faen (7/26/03 4:33 am) Reply	Dragon spellcraft I've mailed Wizards customer service about the Dragon spellcraft issue. Blue is the only colour of either group that lists it as a class skill, but most of the example dragons appear to have full class skill ranks in it. So something is in error in the MM. I'll post here if/when I get a reply. Tangentially, while I'm overall really pleased with most of the rules changes in 3.5, I'm finding a ridiculous number of errors, and the subtle changes/omissions that Monte discussed in his review are really beginning to bother me. I wish they'd used a sidebar or symbol or something when they were making an explicit change from 3.0. Edited by: msherman at: 7/26/03 6:00 am
madfox Verrik (7/27/03 5:42 am) Reply	Re: Dragon spellcraft *Quote:* - As mentioned, Vranthis has lost access to Spider Climb. I chose another mobility related spell, Expiditious Retreat, to replace it. The question is if expeditious retreat is really of the same value to Vranthis as spider climb was. A dragon already is very fast and that extra +30 ft. on ground movement only is not particular a spell you would expact on a dragon. While I understand the reasoning behind keeping a movement related spell, I am not sure I agree with it.
msherman Faen (7/27/03 6:05 am) Reply	Re: Dragon spellcraft Well, I'd prefer Protection From Chaos, myself. Especially because it will be effective against half my party. The CN guy always mocks the two Good characters when they're affected by PF Good, and he was especially cruel when the good characters were struggling to get across the Unhallowed Earth Temple. Does anyone have any other suggestions for that spell? I'll change it back to PF Chaos for now.
ZansForCans Litorian (7/27/03 12:06 pm) Reply	Re: Dragon spellcraft I also think PfC makes a lot of sense given that he's surrounded by a bunch of crazy chaos zealots I'd say go with that and put the few other good suggestions in the explanation section. Group Editing & Authoring Support flexible campaign management for the web info :: demo
Infiniti2000 Verrik (7/27/03 3:19 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Dragon spellcraft "Keen Senses (Ex): Includes darkvision 120 ft." This should also include 'lowlight' vision (x2 in normal light, x4 in shadowy illumination). "...gives Vranthis one extra feat. I selected Hover..." I like wingover because it works better with his flyby attack. "Does anyone have any other suggestions for that spell?" I personally have changed it to shield. To me, wingover will provide the similar use of spider climb, so I think an alternate defensive spell is called for. However, I think PfC is a great choice, given his location and alignment.
msherman Faen (7/27/03 3:44 pm) Reply	Re: Dragon spellcraft *Quote:* I like wingover because it works better with his flyby attack. I think hover trumps wingover (if I understand the rules correctly; I may be misreading them). By my read, Wingover lets you turn up to 180 degrees as a free action, once per round. So with a move and an attack (using flyby), Vranthis could fly 150', broken into two straight lines, only level or diving, and attack once anywhere along the length. With Hover, when he starts the round in flight, he can use his move equiv. to hover, halting his motion and then flying 75' in any direction, and attack once anywhere along that line, including straight up or down. He also gets all the full attack benefits of hover if he chooses to stop and hover in place for multiple rounds. Ignoring the hover-in-place option, Wingover is clearly better, but not by a lot; really, the only differences that I can see are the range (and 75' is still quite a bit), and that with Wingover, Vranthis only needs one "safe" place to end each round, while with Hover, he needs two, and needs to alternate between them attacking en route, since he can only change direction at the beginning of his round, and if the party clues in to what's going on, they could arrange themselves so that there is no safe place for Vranthis to fly past to at the end of the round. Add in the hover-in-place/full attack option, though, and I think Hover is really the superior feat.
Infiniti2000 Verrik (7/27/03 8:46 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Dragon spellcraft Well, okay, you got me convinced. When Vranthis kicks the crap out of my players this Saturday, I'll be sure to tell them to PM msherman about it.
ZansForCans Litorian (7/27/03 9:02 pm) Reply	Re: Dragon spellcraft "When Vranthis kicks the crap out of my players this Saturday, I'll be sure to tell them to PM msherman about it." You know, when I first came here, I thought the great ideas were the best part. Now I know it's the multitude of real, live scapegoats I can blame things on. Group Editing & Authoring Support flexible campaign management for the web info :: demo
Infiniti2000 Verrik (7/27/03 9:16 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Dragon spellcraft Ah, drat. Wouldn't you know msherman has his inbox disabled?
msherman Faen (7/28/03 3:28 am) Reply	Re: Dragon spellcraft Sorry, I've enabled the mailbox; I didn't realize that it was part of my duties as a member-in-good-standing of the community to take responsibility for other DMs' TPKs.
msherman Faen (7/29/03 7:16 am) Reply	Re: Room changes for entire area Here's all the room changes for this area: *Quote:* Page no. 47; CRM 16 Medium-Size Monstrous Spider: hp 12; see Monster Manual page 288 *Quote:* Page no. 47; CRM 18B Basilisk: hp 46; see Monster Manual page 23 - No change *Quote:* Page no. 48; CRM 19 Thoqquas (2): hp 17, 15; see Monster Manual page 242 *Quote:* Page no. 48; CRM 20 Green Slime Trap: CR 4 - no change *Quote:* Page no. 48; CRM 23 (EL 7) Marlgran: Ettin; hp 70; CR 6; see Monster Manual page 106 Rust Monster: hp 29; see Monster Manual page 216 - In 3.0, Ettin's had darkvision. In 3.5, they only have low-light vision, so it would be wise to give Marlgran some kind of light source, such as a lantern and a box of oil flasks. *Quote:* Page no. 49; CRM 25 Ochre Jelly: hp 68; see Monster Manual page 202 - Ochre Jellies' Con has increased, so the HP have gone up *Quote:* Page no. 49; CRM 26 (EL 10) Vranthis: Juvenile green dragon; hp 133; see 3.5 updates for Appendix 3 Fiendish Girallon: hp 58; cold and fire resistance (5), damage reduction (5/magic), SR 12, smite good 1/day (+7 damage to good-aligned creatures); see Monster Manual pages 126, 107 - Vranthis' CR has increased to 8, and combined with the CR 7 Fiendish Girallon, that's an EL 10 encounter (in the module it's listed as EL 6, but it really should have been EL 9) *Quote:* Page no. 49; CRM 28 Moolowik: Kuo-toa Rog4; hp 29; see 3.5 updates for Appendix 3 *Quote:* Page no. 50; CRM 29 (EL 7) Collapsing Ceiling Trap: CR 7 - I calculated the CR using the rules on DMG pg. 74, treating it as two traps: a 3d6 trap with 1 round onset delay (CR 5), and a 10d6 trap with 6 round onset delay (CR 4) *Quote:* Page no. 50; CRM 30 Digester: hp 71; see Monster Manual page 59 *Quote:* Page no. 51; CRM 32 Violet Fungus: hp 18; see Monster Manual page 112 *Quote:* Page no. 51; CRM 33 Umber Hulk: hp 77; see Monster Manual page 248 *Quote:* Page no. 51; CRM 34 Umber Hulk: hp 59; see Monster Manual page 248 - Umber Hulks have added Toughness Still to come: Moolowik! Edited by: msherman at: 8/4/03 11:39 am
msherman Faen (7/31/03 4:17 am) Reply	bump Can anyone give me a hand with the trap CR in CRM20? On a related note, in a couple places in this conversion, I've gone under the assumption that EL/CR calculations should round up. The DMG states that EL N + EL N-2 = EL N+1, and EL N + EL N = EL N+2 In a couple places, I've needed to know what EL N + EL N-1 is, and I've ronded that up to EL N+2. Is that correct, or should I use EL N+1? This mostly only applies to ELs, which are just informative, but in one place (the CR I calculated for the trap in CRM 29), it's a CR calculation, so it effects the XP reward the party gets.
Infiniti2000 Verrik (7/31/03 6:44 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: traps I think rounding it up in the case of the trap is a good idea, because I see the 10d6 damage more like CR 3 anyway. When it's EL N + N-1, it's a judgment call. For the most part, as the books say, it's better to overestimate than underestimate, so you did the right thing. Good work.
ZansForCans Litorian (7/31/03 7:47 am) Reply	Re: traps Re: CRM 20, it's the same (CR 4), check DMG pg. 76 (Dungeon Ecology). This isn't really technically a trap, but it functions kind of like one. I agree that in general setting EL or CR one too high is much better than one too low. I'm curious how you calculated the parts, though. I'm still wrestling with the new system too, especially for cases that don't fit the chart well. For the first half, I'm getting: Avg. Dam 10.5/7 = 1.5 (round up to +2) Search DC = 15 (-1) Disable DC = n/a (+2? -- I figured this was at least as good as DC 30+) Reflex DC = 15 (-1) Onset delay = 1 round (+3) For a total of CR 5 The second is similar, but with damage bonus of 35/7 = +5 and delay bonus of -1, for CR 4. So I'm getting CR 2 higher than yours--is that due to the disable DC that I added in? Thoughts about why not to include that? Group Editing & Authoring Support flexible campaign management for the web info :: demo
msherman Faen (7/31/03 8:03 am) Reply	Re: traps Good point, I ignored the fact that this trap can't be disabled. Treating that as a DC of 30+ is probably the right thing to do. I'll bump the resulting CR by 2. Edited by: msherman at: 7/31/03 8:18 am
msherman Faen (8/4/03 11:55 am) Reply	Re: Moolowik *Quote:* Page no. 173 Moolowik: Male kuo-toa Rog4; CR 6; Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Aquatic); HD 2d8+4d6+6; hp 29; Init +1; Spd 20 ft., swim 50 ft.; AC 22, touch 11, flat-footed 21; Base Atk +5; Grp +6; Atk +1 shortspear +7 melee (1d6+2) or +1 shortspear +7 ranged (1d6+2); Full Atk +1 shortspear +7 melee (1d6+2) and bite +1 melee (1d4) or +1 shortspear +7 ranged (1d6+2); Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Sneak attack +2d6; SQ Adhesive, amphibious, evasion, immune to poison and paralysis, keen sight, light blindness, resistance to electricity 10, slippery, trapfinding, trap sense +1, uncanny dodge; AL NE; SV Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +4; Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8. Skills and Feats: Climb +4, Disable Device +3, Escape Artist +7, Hide +6, Knowledge (local) +3, Knowledge (religion) +4, Listen +7, Move Silently +8, Search +14, Sense Motive +4, Spot +11, Swim +5; Alertness, Blind-fight, Dodge, Great Fortitude Adhesive (Ex): On a failed melee attack, attacker must succeed at a Ref save (DC 14), or a wepon sticks to the Kuo-Toa's shield and is yanked from the wielder's grasp. Amphibious (Ex): Although kuo-toas breathe by means of gills, they can survive indefinitely on land. Keen Sight (Ex): Kuo-toas spot a moving object or creature even if it is invisible, ethereal, or astral. Light Blindness (Ex): Blinded for 1 round by abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell). Suffers a -1 circumstance penalty on all attack rolls, saves, and checks in bright light. Slippery (Ex): Not affected by webs or other forms of confinement. Possessions: +1 shortspear, pouch with 200gp, +1 leather armor, heavy wooden shield with sapphire inlaid (400gp) Currently spying in the water around CRM 28, though normally lives in Water Temple (CRM 197) - None of the SA/SQ descriptions changed; should they be retyped in here? - Moolowik's ability scores are too low; in 3.5, a level-advanced monster should use the elite ability array, but Moolowik's scores are just a shuffled version of the common Kuo-Toa. See this thread for more info. For now, I've left his CR unchanged, until we reach consensus. - In the module, Moolowik was using a Halfspear; that weapon seems to have disappeared from 3.5. - In the module, Moolowik was incorrectly given +1d6 sneak attack. - In the module, Moolowik is listed with an Insanity score of 1, with a completely bogus altered wisdom; it looks like a copy and paste error. - By my calculations, Moolowik had 6 skill points too many (he had 57, he should have 51). Also, in 3.0, the armor check penalty for the shield was included in the skill block, while in 3.5 it's optional equipment, and not included, lowering the skills even further. And with that, this area is complete. I'll post a change log if I make any further changes. Note that I just now made a small change to Marlgran, adding a note about his loss of darkvision. Edited by: msherman at: 8/11/03 4:18 am
madfox Verrik (8/4/03 11:41 pm) Reply	Re: Moolowik Personally I would add the description of adhesiveness, keen sight and light blindness to the description of Moolowik. Those are the SQ that do not immidiately make sense and hence according to DMG page 84 (?) should include a description.