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Andorax
Verrik
(7/28/03 8:36 am)
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Fire Node Conversion [3.5]
Imix was very tricky. I had to reverse-engineer how he was built from a 3.0 Elder Fire Elemental, then try to apply the same changes to a 3.5 Elder Fire Elemental.

So, compared to an Elder Fire Elemental:

Imix has a non-standard size increase (less Str and Con, more Dex, Int, Wis, Cha)
+12 HD
+2 Natural Armor (I've errataed this to +4, as it should be for a Huge-Gargantuan change)
Spell-Like Abilities and SR 20
+4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +14 Int, +7 Wis, +7 Cha
A really big Greatsword.
+5 CR for being him (+1 for HD increase)

The CR for a 36 HD Elder Fire Elemental was only 12 in 3.0, but now it would be 14. Still, I don't think Imix's improvements justify a full +5 above that, so I am leaving his CR as 17 (+1 improved stats, +2 for significantly improved combat effectiveness).

Quote:

Imix, Prince of Evil Fire Elementals: CR 17, Gargantuan elemental (fire, extraplanar); HD 36d8+180; hp 342; Init +14; Spd 60 ft.; AC 28 (touch 18, flat-footed 18); BAB +27, Grapple +47; Atk +33 melee (4d8+14/17-20 and 1d6 fire, Gargantuan +2 flaming greatsword OR +33 melee (4d6+12 and 2d8 fire, slam); FAtk +33/+28/+23/+18 (greatsword, as above) OR +33 (2 slams, as above); Space/Reach 20 ft./20 ft.; SA Burn, spell-like abilities; SQ Damage reduction 10/-, elemental traits, fire subtype, SR 20; AL CE; SV Fort +19, Ref +32, Will +18; Str 26, Dex 31, Con 20, Int 20, Wis 18, Cha 18.

Skills and Feats: Bluff +18, Concentration +20, Intimidate +19, Knowledge (arcana, the planes, religion) +20, Listen +39, Sense Motive +13, Spot +40; Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (greatsword), Improved Initiative*, Iron Will, Martial Weapon Proficiency (greatsword), Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse*, Whirlwind Attack.

* Bonus racial feats

Burn (Ex): Those hit by Imix's slam attack must succeed at a Ref save (DC 33) or catch fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds (see Catching on Fire, page 303 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). A burning creature can take a move-equivalent action to put out the flame. Creatures hitting Imix with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by his slam attack, and also catch fire unless they succed at a Ref save. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Elemental Traits: Immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning. Not subject to critical hits or flanking, darkvision 60', cannot be raised via raise dead or resurrection, does not eat, sleep or breathe.

Spell-like Abilities (Sp): At will -- fireball (10d6 damage, DC 18), wall of fire (2d4, 1d4, or 2d6+15 damage, DC 19); 1/day -- summon elemental (one elder fire elemental, 1d3 Huge fire elementals, 1d3 efreet, 1d6 salamanders, or 3d6 fire mephits). All as a 15th-level sorcerer.

Fire Subtype(Ex): Fire immunity, takes 50% additional damage from cold effects, regardless of save.

Posessions: Gargantuan +2 flaming greatsword.

Imix is normally found in the Fire Node, area 9 (Page 153).

Imix's Hide skill modifier was removed. He had no ranks, and has no intention of trying to hide with a total -2 modifier.


Skills were a HUGE issue. By my count, Imix has 273 skill points (he doesn't come anywhere even remotely close in the book). I hope my choices were reasonable.

Gave up Alertness and Weapon Focus (Slam) for two of his six extra feats (above a standard Elder Fire Elemental). He gets the other four through HD advancement, and picks up the remaining Elder Fire Elemental's "standard" feats: Blind-Fight, Great Fortitude, and Iron Will.

Major DM tip...with the rules for Space and Reach, and the new rules for Whirlwind Attack, Imix can and should reliably hit everyone in the party at his best attack bonus...he's brutally nasty when Whirlwinding.


Edited by: Andorax at: 8/15/03 9:04 am
Admiral Xzar
Faen
(7/28/03 8:51 am)
Reply
Re: Fire Node Conversion [3.5]
catching on fire...

see page 303 DMG

Xzar

Andorax
Verrik
(7/28/03 8:54 am)
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Re: Fire Node Conversion [3.5]
Thank you, Admiral Xzar.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

Andorax
Verrik
(7/28/03 1:01 pm)
Reply
Re: Fire Node Conversion [3.5]
Quote:

Maliskra: Female half-fire elemental/half-medusa Clr5/Doomdreamer1; CR 12, medium-size outsider (fire, extraplanar); HD 6d8+6 plus 5d8+5 plus 1d8+4; hp 71; Init +4; Spd 20 ft.; AC 27 (touch 14, flat-footed 23); BAB +9, Grapple +9; Atk +13 melee (1d4/19-20, curved knife) OR +13 melee (1d4 and poison, snakes) OR +14 ranged (1d6+1/x3, +1 shortbow); FAtk +13/+8 (knife, as above) AND +13 (snakes, as above) OR +14/+9 ranged (+1 shortbow, as above); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Petrifying gaze, poison, rebuke undead 6/day, spell-like abilities; SQ Doomdreamer secret, immune to disease and fire, insanity, +4 bonus on saves against poison; AL CE; SV Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +13; Str 10, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 18 (15*), Cha 17.

* Adjusted to take Insanity into account.

Skills and Feats: Bluff +12, Concentration +4, Disguise +12, Hide +6, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Knowledge (religion) +9, Move Silently +11, Sense Motive +6, Spot +11; Lightning Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Spell Focus (Necromancy), Weapon Finesse.

Rebuke Undead: Maliskra gains a +2 synergy bonus on Rebuke Undead checks because she has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion).

Petrifying Gaze (Su): Turn to stone permanently, 30 ft., Fort save DC 16.

Poison (Ex): Snakes. Fort save DC 14; 1d6 Str/1d6 Str.

Spell-like Abilities (Sp): 1/day -- burning hands (DC 14), produce flame (DC 15), flaming sphere (DC 15), wall of fire (DC 17), fire shield (DC 17), fire seeds (DC 19) (all as Sor 12). DC = 13 + spell level.

Doomdreamer Secret: Unnatural vitality (+3 hp).

Insanity (Ex): Insanity score 3. Wis 21 for bonus spells and DCs, Wis 15 for all other Wis-based checks.

Spells Prepared (5/6/5/4; base DC = 15 + spell level): 0--cure minor wounds, detect magic, inflict minor wounds~, read magic, resistance; 1st--bless, command, cure light wounds, divine favor, inflict light wounds~*, shield of faith; 2nd--bull's strength, death knell~, bear's endurance, hold person, shatter*; 3rd--blindness/deafness, contagion~*, dispel magic (2).
*Domain spell. Deity: Tharizdun. Domains: Destruction (1/day smite, +4 attack, +6 damage); Madness (1/day add Insanity score to Wis-based roll).
~Because of Spell Focus (Necromancy), the base DC against these spells is 16 + spell level.

Posessions: Orb of Oblivion (see Appendix 1), +1 shortbow, +2 chain shirt, +1 heavy steel shield, rope of climbing, black thurible (and 3 balls of incense of dreaming; see Appendix 1), torch of revealing (and 3 cones of incense of dreaming; see Appendix 1), curved knife, 20 arrows, 81 gp, iron key (opens trunk 5 in area 20 of the Recovered Temple), holy symbol (obex), robes.


Maliskra is normally found in the Fire Node, area 9 (Page 153).

I deemed her Cleric/Doomdreamer levels to be non-associated, and thus only worth a +3 to CR. As a clerical spellcaster she is very weak.






Edited by: Andorax at: 8/12/03 8:49 am
Andorax
Verrik
(8/12/03 8:50 am)
Reply
Re: Fire Node Conversion [3.5]
Edited Maliskra's statblock to add the wis modifier from insanity note.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

Andorax
Verrik
(8/12/03 9:30 am)
Reply
Re: Fire Node Conversion [3.5]
Page 151:

Area 1
Quote:

Salamnder Noble: hp 115; see Monster Manual page 218.

Disregard the last sentance of the Salamander Noble's tactics.



Area 2
Quote:

Bodaks (2): hp 56, 59; +2 greatsword, +8 melee, damage 2d6+3; see Monster Manual page 28.



Sidebar
Quote:

...unprotected flammable clothing catch fire (see page 303 in the Dungeon Master's Guide)...




Page 152:

Area 3
Quote:

Fire Giants (2): hp 130, 159; see Monster Manual page 121.

...while the other flips over the table and hurls rocks from behind it (gaining cover).



Area 4
Quote:

Greater Fire Elementals (Evil) (3): hp 171, 178, 190; see Monster Manual page 98.



Area 5
Quote:

Average Salamanders (6): hp 33, 34, 38, 39, 40, 44; see Monster Manual page 218.



Area 7
Quote:

Efreet (2): hp 60, 62; see Monster Manual page 115.



Area 8
Quote:

Glabrezu: hp 80; see Monster Manual page 43.




Page 153:

Area 9
Quote:

This 50-foot-tall creature is a red, flaming mass, humanoid-shaped but almost featureless except for eyes that burn white-hot. He wields a
Gargantuan +2 flaming greatsword studded with rubies...

...leave his side. She casts bear's endurance, bull's strength, and shield of faith on herself if she has an opportunity to prepare, or else right before battle.



Page 154:

Further Encounters

Quote:

Six fire mephits (EL 8); see Monster Manual page 184.
Seven steam mephits (EL 8); see Monster Manual page 184.
Six magma mephits (EL 8); see Monster Manual page 184.
Eight rasts (EL 11); see Monster Manual page 213.
Pyrohydra with eleven heads (EL 12); see Monster Manual page 156.
Red dragon, young adult (EL 12); see Monster Manual page 75 (or use statistics...

Edited by: Andorax at: 8/14/03 5:32 pm
Andorax
Verrik
(8/15/03 6:49 am)
Reply
Re: Fire Node Conversion [3.5]
Amazing, the final BBEG of the whole module, and he invokes no comment at all! I hope that's because I did a solid job of converting him.

Anyways, I'm declaring this thread done unless I hear otherwise from the rest of the gang.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

could be any DM
Faen
(8/15/03 8:54 am)
Reply
Re: Fire Node Conversion [3.5]
Andorax,

Cool stuff! However, shouldn't Imix have better than 19-20 critical on his greatsword considering he has improved critical as a feat?

I haven't gone through in detail yet, but since that was an earlier errata it jumped out at me.

Andorax
Verrik
(8/15/03 9:04 am)
Reply
Re: Fire Node Conversion [3.5]
Should indeed...and fixed. Forgot that even Imix had errata on him.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

ZansForCans 
Bloodied Knife Cultist
(12/19/03 11:18 pm)
Reply
Re: Imix
And so it comes to this...

First some questions that we need to fully decide on:

* Andorax gives the big torch an extra +2 to match the Huge -> Gargantuan shift. However, we're not giving him the other extra bonuses he could get for a 'proper' Str and Con, +4 and +2 respectively. Curiously they're all exactly 1/2 of the 'proper' increase he should get purely for a size increase. Looking at the size chart for fire elementals, it certainly seems like a 50-foot one would qualify for the next full step off the chart.

Did Monte have an early table that was changed or did he just make an executive decision here for Imix? In any case, what do we want to do?

(a) nothing,
(b) +2 to NA like Andorax has above,
(c) full H->G increase bonuses

* His sword. I think I just need a double check on this one, but it's a good-sized change, so I wanted to get some approval as well. First, open your 3.5 DMG to pg. 28 and look at Table 2-2 there. Follow the 2d6 line over to three size increases from Medium and you'll see that whopping 6d6. This increases the base max damage to 36 (from 32) and the average from 18 to 21. Sound right & good?

* His slam. I think it's just 3d8, not 4d8 right? The elder elemental is 2d8 and his H->G increase is one step. I wondered why Monte didn't change this for him vs. the elder, though. Kind of goes back to the first question above.

Now some simple (hopefully) fix-ups:

* The slam attacks are only 1x Str now.

* His Reflex save doesn't change, I think. The other two do because of feats, but the +30 looked right to me.

* I found 10 extra skill points to burn (only 263 spent!). Woohoo! I put them into Diplo because he already was getting a +4 synergy bonus from Bluff & Sense Motive and, well, that just looks more princely.

I think it's hilarious that he weighs something like 14 lbs. His sword weighs more than 4x that. ;)


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msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/20/03 5:55 am)
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Re: Imix
My vote is to do it right by the rules for the size increase: +4 str, +2 con, and the sword looks right to me, too. That'll power attack nice, too!

ZansForCans 
Bloodied Knife Cultist
(12/20/03 7:52 am)
Reply
Re: Imix
Quote:
That'll power attack nice, too!


Depends on which end of the sword you're on :) I had put this comment in the notes for him:

"Remember that v3.5 Power Attack does 2x the damage of the bonus trade when using a two-handed weapon. With a BAB this large, try not to have too much fun…"


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Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(12/20/03 8:57 am)
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ezSupporter
Re: Imix
Imix is a unique creature, so Monte took liberties with him I'm sure. Merely advancing a fire elemental is not the same, but it's a good guideline. I would make comments to that effect, but I wouldn't change the 'official' statblock accordingly, except for things like the base weapon damage. Note that the picture itself doesn't even look like a fire elemental as Imix appears more solid.

arcane12
Tolling Bell Cultist
(12/20/03 3:11 pm)
Reply
Re: Imix
Hauled out my fiend folio :D Good ol' Imix is in there, along with the other elemental princes. here's the physcial description:

Imix generally appears as an 18' high pilliar of flame. He radiates heat constantly (hurting all those within 10').

(obvoiusly I rewrote to take the crunchy 1st ed. bits out) The picture shows some vaguely humaniod flame in one picture, and a cowled, robed figure made of flame in the other (shooting flame from one of his arms, standing in flames). Not much comment on weapons so it looks like he was more or less completely rewritten.

If anyone want a bit more of the info just ask :)

ZansForCans 
Bloodied Knife Cultist
(12/21/03 12:10 am)
Reply
Maliskra
I'm torn on how many racial skill points she really should have in 3.5. The problem is this line from the update document (again): "Half-elementals gain skills and feats as the base creature."

Does that mean we throw out the (8+Int bonus) per HD calculation in the adventure (I'm assuming that's in Deities & Demigods as well) and go back to the 3.5 medusa's points? Or do you think it's just referring to what skills are class/cross-class? All the other half- templates in core have specified racial skill point changes that match their type change. I'd tend to do the same here and give her the 8/HD. Please advise...

Forging onward assuming that last bit...

Maliskra has a dirty little secret. She snuck in the back door. She's not really a Doomdreamer ;) Hehe... she's lacking one rank in both Knowledge skill prerequisites.

It's pretty easy to fix since she gets 3 bonus HD worth of skill points (27) in 3.5 (3.0 half-elemental was only (8+1) x 6 [HD]). I come up with this now:

Bluff +12, Concentration +8, Diplomacy +5, Disguise +12, Hide +6, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (religion) +14, Move Silently +11, Sense Motive +6, Spot +11;

Diplomacy should have been in the adventure text as a synergy skill.

Other minor fixes:

* Snake attack as secondary drops back to +8 in the full attack.

* Her poison had the wrong secondary damage in the original adventure text. It should be 1d6/2d6.


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ZansForCans 
Bloodied Knife Cultist
(12/23/03 2:41 pm)
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More...
I added some bits about monster changes to this section. I'm doing something chaotic, moving backwards to the Temple on that and working out of the book for a few more room bits I've found forward from the Temple. It's all coming together quickly now though (esp. with me on vacation!)... just hang on a bit more!

The only errata/rule bit I encountered wrt/ the creatures is this for the Bodaks in FN2 (page 151):

Quote:
The attack bonus in the line above is likely not technically right. With a BAB of +4 and a Str bonus of +1, the maximum bonus should only be +7, not +8. However, the bodaks are not innately proficient with the the greatsword either, which should officially reduce their attack bonus to +3. Trading Alertness and Weapon Focus (slam) could bring this back up to +8 with Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus (greatsword).


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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(12/23/03 4:42 pm)
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Re: More...
As far as Imix goes I think we should be careful to not recreate the Howler situation--inflating the power of a creature by slavish adherence to the rules. As the final boss, I'm sure he was carefully balanced to his current power level and my vote would be for a conversion that gives him little or no boosting.

We could always confirm with Monte what his intent as original designer was in the chat early next year. That said if there is anything we as 3.5 conversion team are wanting to check with him, not just Imix, the chat is a good opportunity.

ZansForCans 
Bloodied Knife Cultist
(12/23/03 8:54 pm)
Reply
Re: More...
Heh, I was going to put up something funny because there was one opinion in each camp, but CC broke the tie ;) I was leaning this way as well in any case, but if no one has objections, I'll put up the full size-change first paragraph block in the document as an alternative with full comment as well.


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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(12/23/03 9:44 pm)
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Re: More...
I think both would be fine... Just like the Howler.

ZansForCans 
Bloodied Knife Cultist
(12/24/03 12:05 am)
Reply
Alt Imix
OK, here's the comment I've made:

Quote:
Finally, Imix looks to have gained exactly half of the normal Huge to Gargantuan progression over the elder elemental (+2 natural armor, +4 Str, +2 Con). Here are the changes for a full progression, in case you’d like to use them instead. Changes are denoted against the version above.

AC 28, touch 16, flat-footed 18; Grp +49; Atk +35 melee (6d6+17/17-20 and 1d6 fire, Gargantuan +2 flaming greatsword) or +35 melee (3d8+10 and 2d8 fire, slam); Full Atk +35/+30/+25/+20 melee (6d6+17/17-20 and 1d6 fire, Gargantuan +2 flaming greatsword) or +35 melee (3d8+10 and 2d8 fire, 2 slams); SV Fort +20; Str 30, Dex 31, Con 22, Int 20, Wis 18, Cha 18; Concentration +20; Burn DC 34.


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ZansForCans 
Bloodied Knife Cultist
(12/24/03 12:14 am)
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Re: Alt Imix
Maliskra's skill point issue is pretty firm now in my mind that it should stay at 8/HD. I added a few more room text tweaks and monster comments in the document. I'll try to post the more important back here as well in the near future.

But in the meantime, The Fire Node has been added.


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