3.5 conv: CRs and stats of monsters with class levels

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msherman Faen (8/4/03 7:34 am) Reply	3.5 conv: CRs and stats of monsters with class levels In 3.5, the MM has clarified the CR rules for advancing monsters (MM 294). One point it makes in the footnote of table 4-4 is that "Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array" for ability scores. For monsters not advanced by class, using the elite ability array is a +1 CR improvement. However, many of the level-advanced monsters in RTTTOEE don't use the elite array; they just have the common stats of the monster from the PHB, with possibly a few points shuffled around. For example, Moolowik has the standard stats of a common Kuo-Toa, with 4 points dropped from wisdom, and 3 added to dexterity; in fact, he's got sub-common abilities. When converting cases like this, should I: 1) ignore the low abilities 2) bump up the abilities using the elite array 3) drop the CR by 1 For now, I'm going to ignore the abilities, but I'm thinking that option 3 is probably the correct thing to do. If that's what we agree on, we should probably audit all the already-converted monsters with class levels, to see if any of them need to have their CRs or ability scores adjusted.
Andorax Verrik (8/4/03 8:11 am) Reply	Re: 3.5 conv: CRs and stats of monsters with class levels I'm leery of the options presented. No matter which way we go, we're failing to be consistant to one of our two aims. 1) is inconsistant with a correct 3.5 translation. 2) is inconsistant with maintaining a "close as possible" translation of RttToEE. 3) has inconsistancies with both, and could trigger a "general" lowering of CR. I've talked in the past about how some things will go up, and some go down, so not to obsess over any single shift...but something like this (a general drop in CR of virtually every monster NPC) could make a significant difference in XP awards to the PCs. I'd really like to hear other opinions on this. Personally, I'm actually leaning more towards #1 since it will result in the least amount of changes from the original, but I'm concerned with the issues you bring up about how this wouldn't make a properly 3.5 interpretation of the adventure. "Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"
msherman Faen (8/4/03 8:23 am) Reply	Re: 3.5 conv: CRs and stats of monsters with class levels I agree that option 3 will have a general lowering effect on CRs throughout the module, but IMO, that wouldn't be a bad thing. Changing the CRs in an area has two different effects; one is that the EL changes, which means that the DM can better estimate the lethality of a given area compared to the party's average level. The second is that the XP rewards change; having a party advance too fast seems to be a pretty consistant complaint about this module, so dropping the CRs a bit wouldn't be a problem, I don't think. With the exception of parties that die too many times, I've never heard someone complain that their parties levels were too low. I've long thought that the ELs in this module were fundamentally broken, anyway; most of the ELs are given on a room by room basis, but most complexes within the mines are encountered all at once (or at best, in two or three chunks). This bumps up the ELs by a _lot_ higher than what the module claims. Having an accurate EL is what's really important here, since that's basically how likely you are to accidentally TPK the party when they wander into an area. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing a project to calculate proper ELs for each major encounter area in the module. Anyone else interested in seeing that?
madfox Verrik (8/4/03 8:33 am) Reply	Re: 3.5 conv: CRs and stats of monsters with class levels Is having a lower attribute score really worth 1 CR compared to the gain of class abilities? Other then that I agree with msherman. If the CRs are lower in the new edition then at least show it. That is not the same as increasing the power of the monsters to come closer to the given CR. It only means the PCs will get slightly less xp. It will mean though that all of us who are converting characters will need to check those attributes
Infiniti2000 Verrik (8/4/03 9:20 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: 3.5 conv: CRs and stats of monsters with class levels "Is having a lower attribute score really worth 1 CR compared to the gain of class abilities?" Yes, it is. Consider the dropping of 2 points from each stat. It lowers BAB, all attack rolls, damage rolls, all saves, and all skills one 1. This equivalent to a level for the most part since not all classes gain all at the same time. And, that's a simple 12 point buy over the 11,11,11,10,10,10 structure. Up it to an elite array and the overall change is equivalent to additional class abilities or hit points. Anyway, I'm for changing/noting the recommended CR as opposed to the stats because (1) it maintains the original module, and (2) it would be a significant effort for conversion, enforcing too many choices for the person doing the conversion.
Delgar2 Faen (8/4/03 9:20 am) Reply	Re: 3.5 conv: CRs and stats of monsters with class levels My Viewpoint is this: We want it to be 3.5 compatable, but we also don't want to errata the whole document. I think leaving the stats as is fine and is the easiest. Also CR's are rough estimates as it is, I don't think a shift up or down in CR will really make that much of a difference. That's just my take. Delgar
Andorax Verrik (8/4/03 11:20 am) Reply	Re: 3.5 conv: CRs and stats of monsters with class levels Ok, let's take a quick look at Part 3: Trond (Ogre Barbarian 6) After my errata note that his Str (according to his damage modifiers) should be 23 instead of the listed 19: Str +2, Dex +2, Int +1, Cha +2 The Second (Aboleth Cleric 7/Doomdreamer 1) Dex +1, Con +1, Wis +3 The other Elite Ogres (Guards and Elite Guards) have stats that were identical with regular Ogres. They have class levels, but are "nameless" NPCs. As for the Fire Node: Maliskra, the Medusa/Half-Fire Elemental Cleric 5/Doomdreamer 1 Int -2, Wis +5 So all told, they didn't get the "Elite Array", but they were fairly close to the mark. I can see nothing but extra work and a high prospect of errors in trying to convert everyone to a proper "elite array", and I am genuinely concerned that an accross-the-board drop of -1 CR (which isn't clearly "by the book" either) wouldn't be fair to PCs. Honestly, I have to conclude that our best bet is to just leave stats and CRs both as-is. I admit that it is a problem, but I can't really see either alternative solution as a good choice. "Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"
ZansForCans Litorian (8/4/03 12:15 pm) Reply	Re: 3.5 conv: CRs and stats of monsters with class levels I vote for a combination of #1 and #3. Here's my suggestion: We just ignore the low ability scores and push forward with the meat of the conversion. For now, maybe having the converter or section leaders just compile a list of total ability mods (or score adjustments) above racial bases would be good. This could even be left until later though. Then, after most of the NPC's have been looked at and converted, we record a list of all the NPCs with class levels (all of them?) and classify them as either elite or not, based on their total ability bonus above their racial base (+5 looks to be a threshold consistent with the array in the DMG/MM). At that point, we can decide based on the number of changes needed whether to incorporate CR changes back into the 'official' stat blocks or to just have a table in the general notes of the conversion document listing recommended adjustments to CR for this particular subset of NPCs. One worry that I share with Andorax is that if enough CRs drop, the party may get behind in the XP curve relative to some of the major encounters whose ELs are already very high relative to average party level at the time they encounter them. It's possible that the CR-drop might be weighted in various parts of the CRM (like in the Temples), where there are more class-bearing NPCs. A table noting all the changes might be better for a DM who wants to make sure they rebalance the adventure and where to do it. Group Editing & Authoring Support flexible campaign management for the web info :: demo
ThirdWizard Giant (8/4/03 2:14 pm) Reply	Re: 3.5 conv: CRs and stats of monsters with class levels I think one of the problems associated with using the elite array in the conversion would be where each number would be assigned. The person converting the creature would have to decide where the different numbers would go, and that would add a level of subjectiveness to the conversion that I don't think is implied in its creation. Personally, I'm going to probably use the elite arrays when I run these creatures in my game, but I would reccomend a note about it in the appendix or something like that. If you decide that it is best to use the elite arrays, however, as its closer to a 3.5 (and in fact not using it is technically not converting the creature), then I would say it is best to make the decision as soon as possible so these creatures don't have to be converted twice, increasing likelihood of errors and wasting time that could be spent elsewhere. Just my oppinion of course, there's reason to go either way...
Daeinar Faen (8/5/03 2:30 am) Reply	my doubts I'm with Andorax on this one. Much work, insignificant gain, if you ask me. That's a boatload of characters to update, recalculating skills, checking that feats are still available after chaning attributes... And I think we all agree that the module is deadly enough as it is. The critters in there all have comparatively low attributes, but that has never been the point, since the whole "dynamic dungeon" thing is what wears out most groups, isn't it? Maybe it's fun to tinker around with the ability scores, but I am also a bit afraid that -due to each one's subjectiveness- the monsters will be very close to "optimal" in the end.
Cordo Crowfoot Litorian (8/5/03 4:14 am) Reply	I say lower the CRs I say lower the CRs. That will mean we don't have to break our rule of unnecessary changes to the module AND will reflect the reality of version 3.5. I doubt lowering a few CRs is going to push players too far behind the curve. There are plenty of encounters in which PCs can make up the deficit.
smetzger Faen (8/5/03 5:37 am) Reply	Re: 3.5 conv: CRs and stats of monsters with class levels I vote for #1. Then make a note for the creature explaining that it may be appropriate to lower the CR for the creature by 1 or to use the Elite array.