Gold Community Okay -- Your Turn
    > Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil
        > 3.5: OF 20-27 (Greater Temple, Thrommel)
New Topic    Add Reply

Page 1 2

<< Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Author Comment
msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/23/03 1:54 pm)
Reply
Thrommel's sword
In the module, Thrommel's sword, Dirge, is a greatsword.

In the Greyhawk canon, Fragarach, his sword from before his disapearance, is usually listed as a Broadsword, which probably translates best to 3rd edition as a Bastard Sword.

IMC, the party's already found Fragarach, and I did make it a bastard sword. So, to synch up Thrommel with that fact, I've made a few changes: I changed Dirge to a Bastard Sword, gave him Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) and Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), and dropped Mobility. I only had to drop the one feat, because without Mobility, he doesn't need to take Dodge as a regular feat, but still gets it as a bonus feat when he becomes a vampire. Alternatively, if you want to keep Mobility, you can drop the weapon focus, and drop Silent Spell (which seems like a strange feat for a Paladin to take, anyway...)

This has the added benefit of letting Thrommel take an offhand Slam attack when he full attacks with his sword, which is a nasty combo.

BTW, you've got Thrommel listed as having an iterative full attack with his slam, which I'm pretty sure isn't correct, since the slam is a natural attack. It's also not very effective, since the Slam's energy drain ability specifically says it can only be used once per round, anyway.

Edited by: msherman at: 12/23/03 1:56 pm
ZansForCans 
Bloodied Knife Cultist
(12/23/03 8:51 pm)
Reply
Re: Thrommel's sword
That's a great catch, and one I personally think is worthy of adding to his comments, if no one else objects. I just finished writing up a long-long-standing errata for the secret passage out of the Temple tower that I've been wanting to add for the better part of this year that also is really to sync this adventure up with ToEE a bit more. Neither is really technically errata, but I think it's important enough if you want the continuity that is there for the most part already.

Please speak up if you feel otherwise!

Re: slam attack. That sounds right to me. I wish I had my MM with me, but I only have the SRD. There is a high-level example vamp there that would probably have this for sure as a double-check, but I can't see how you're wrong there :) Consider it changed.


Group Editing & Authoring Support
flexible campaign management for the web
info :: demo

Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(12/23/03 9:46 pm)
Reply
Re: Thrommel's sword
The high level vamp in the 3.5 MM does have iterative slam. I think iterative slam should be kept... After all Thrommel might lose Dirge somehow. But arguably a note that makes it easier to see that the energy drain only works once per round should be added--it's easy to miss that unless you carefully comb through the huge statblock.

ZansForCans 
Bloodied Knife Cultist
(12/24/03 12:06 am)
Reply
Re: Thrommel's sword
But, I just remembered... isn't that one a monk? Would that make a difference if the slam could be used iteratively?


Group Editing & Authoring Support
flexible campaign management for the web
info :: demo

Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(12/24/03 4:07 am)
Reply
Re: Thrommel's sword
Good question. Since slam != unarmed attack I thought not but I'm not sure.

msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/24/03 6:14 am)
Reply
Re: Thrommel's sword
<cynic>It's not like the examples in the MM are correct very frequently.</cynic>

The high level example vamp in the MM is a monk. He does not, in fact, have an iterative Slam attack; rather, he has the usual Flurry of Blows attack, and applies the energy drain to that. The Energy Drain ability in the template specifies "Living creatures hit by a vampire's slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess)...". So, in this case, it is in fact correct for the monk vampire to get energy drain on the full attack Flurry. While he can only actually drain energy once per round, that only takes effect on an actual hit, so if he misses his first two unarmed attacks and hits the third, he can drain on that hit.

I do have one question about how to interpret the template. My understanding of the usual rules for mixing natural weapons with hand-held weapons is that natural weapons never change the attack bonus they use, regardless of how many other attacks are made that round? The text in the template's full attack says:
Quote:
If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon at its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack.

So, what would the bonus be for the offhand slam following a full attack with the sword? +19 or +14? By the quote, I'm thinking +14, but I think consistancy with the regular rules demands a +19, since the slam is the vampire's primary (and only) natural weapon.

Edit: I just found a counter-example to what I thought the rules were in the MM: the Troglodyte. The trog's primary natural attack is 2 claws (at +1), but when armed with a club, he gets the club at +1 and a single claw at -1 (with Multiattack). So, it seems that when using a one handed weapon, remaining hand attacks are demoted to secondary natural attacks. I can't find an actual rule describing this, though... does anyone know where it's covered?

Edited by: msherman at: 12/24/03 7:01 am
ZansForCans 
Bloodied Knife Cultist
(12/24/03 7:30 am)
Reply
Re: Thrommel's sword
Here it is... in the MM glossary (Types, et. all in the SRD) under Manufactured Weapons:

Quote:
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.


Since secondaries never get promoted in v3.5 even when used alone, it looks like only the primary attack used alone in an attack action or in a full attack natural weapon sequence gets the full bonus.


Group Editing & Authoring Support
flexible campaign management for the web
info :: demo

msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/24/03 8:40 am)
Reply
Re: Thrommel's sword
Thanks for the reference, Zans. So his full attack (with the +1 bastard sword and weapon focus) should be:

+21/+16/+11 melee (1d10+11/19-20 and 2d6 unholy, bastard sword) and +14 melee (1d6+10 and energy drain, slam)

Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(12/24/03 9:40 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: Thrommel's sword
"While he can only actually drain energy once per round, that only takes effect on an actual hit, so if he misses his first two unarmed attacks and hits the third, he can drain on that hit."

That's a good point. Don't forget attacks of opportunity, too, if they occur. He can then take them with either attack (sword or slam), and if he hasn't drained that round, I'd suggest the slam.

Note that he does not need to slam to drain. He can opt to merely touch the target, doing no slam damage, but drain energy and only requiring a melee touch attack. This is particularly useful for those very high AC opponents (30 or so).

Page 1 2 << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>

Add Reply

Email This To a Friend Email This To a Friend
Topic Control Image Topic Commands
Click to receive email notification of replies Click to receive email notification of replies
Click to stop receiving email notification of replies Click to stop receiving email notification of replies
jump to:

- Okay -- Your Turn - Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil - Home -

Powered By ezboard® Ver. 7.32
Copyright ©1999-2005 ezboard, Inc.