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Dax Doomslayer
Human
(9/9/03 7:05 am)
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Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
Hi All,
I'm new to these boards. I'll be starting a party of 6 (or 7) 4th level characters through the RttToEE in 2 weeks. The party composition is as follows: dwarf fighter; 1/2 elf cleric; elf fighter (bow specialist); 1/2 elf sorceror; human rogue and 1/2 orc fighter.
I was wondering a couple of things:
1). I've heard this dungeon is a bit of a "meatgrinder" ; will this party composition be successful?
2). I'll be running a 3.5 campaign. I've seen a lot of references to the conversion. This must be a monumental task !! Are these conversions in some sort of document that can be downloaded. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!!
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morbiczer3
Human
(9/9/03 7:45 am)
Reply
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Re: Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
"1). I've heard this dungeon is a bit of a "meatgrinder" ; will this party composition be successful?"
Well, I think any party composition can be succesful. Your players have every major role covered, their spellcasters are singleclass, so they should be able to manage.
"2). I'll be running a 3.5 campaign. I've seen a lot of references to the conversion. This must be a monumental task !! Are these conversions in some sort of document that can be downloaded. Any help is greatly appreciated. "
AFAIK they are still doing it and when they are ready, then there will be one single PDF with the entire conversion that you can download somewhere.
Some suggestions: 1. Tell your players in advance, that PCs die more easily in this module then in many others. Expect to have a few PC deaths at least. Since you have a lot of PCs, this will be even more of a problem, since they will gain levels more slowly then a party of say four PCs.
2. Decide in advance how to handle training and multiclassing. This module (well, it's actually an entire campaign) doesn't support much downtime between adventure which PCs could use for learning. It's best to keep matters really simple and uncomplicated in this matter.
3. Allways read ahead and prepare carefully.
4. Visit this board often. 
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Daeinar
Faen
(9/9/03 8:21 am)
Reply
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Re: Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
"1). I've heard this dungeon is a bit of a "meatgrinder" ; will this party composition be successful?"
Looks really good. But you never know until you see them play... ,)
"2). I'll be running a 3.5 campaign. I've seen a lot of references to the conversion. This must be a monumental task !! Are these conversions in some sort of document that can be downloaded. Any help is greatly appreciated. "
zans.clanplaid.net/v35/
The first parts are already done (Hommlet, the Moathouse), so you can start right away. Yes it is quite the task.
2. Decide in advance how to handle training and multiclassing. This module (well, it's actually an entire campaign) doesn't support much downtime between adventure which PCs could use for learning. It's best to keep matters really simple and uncomplicated in this matter.
Well, actually, there is no fixed timeline, so you can place the adventure at any pace you want.
3. Allways read ahead and prepare carefully.
VERY important.
4. Visit this board often.
MOST important.
Daeinar
-Have fun, and know the rules before you try to fix them.
Edited by: Daeinar at: 9/9/03 8:22 am
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Andorax
Verrik
(9/9/03 8:44 am)
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Re: Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
Another bit of general advice...with a group that size, they should be able to pound through the earlier parts fairly well. RESIST THE TEMPTATION to upscale earlier encounters. Not only is it more work for you (on top of dealing with the 3.5 conversion, though we've done most of that for you), but it will also award them more experience, which will make them more powerful.
As a result, you'll have to ramp up later encounters as well, and those will award more XP, more ramping...you see where this is going?
Instead, just run it as-writ. The PCs will advance more slowly, as they will be spreading the XP out more broadly between them. However, if they keep working together, use their numbers to good effect, and especially if the casters stay full-progression, they will do just fine and keep in balance.
As for it being a 'grinder...it can be. But if they work well together, keep their "game on", and don't have horrid luck, they shouldn't have a problem.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Dax Doomslayer
Human
(9/9/03 9:13 am)
Reply
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Re: Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
Hi Folks,
Thanks for the advice so far. Actually Andorax, I was thinking of possibly "upscaling" the encounters. My fear is that once they get later into the adventure, they would be underpowered. So are you saying that this wouldn't happen? I guess if this does start to become prevalent, I could send them on a side quest or something. I'm just curious because I don't want to get deep into this and then have these guys get smeared toward the end due to lack of levels. Thanks again.
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Andorax
Verrik
(9/9/03 11:19 am)
Reply
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Re: Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
I would suggest that "side-treks" are a far better approach than trying to upscale. If they don't fall behind, you'll be glad you didn't "feed" them now...and if they do, inserting a side-trek isn't all that hard to do.
The Web Enhancement for Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is a good side-trek, as is the Ministry of Winds free original adventure. I wound up running the Alchemist's Eyrie (another FOA) at one point, and it fit in nicely.
Also, should you find a way to get your hands on the original Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun (WG4), I have some good ideas for how to tie that in.
Seriously, though...don't underestimate how much more powerful a group of 6 is compared to a group of 4. It will take a very long time for them to fall behind, as long as their teamwork is decent and their PCs well designed.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
WarrenWright
Faen
(9/9/03 12:17 pm)
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Further...
To build on what Andorax suggested:
You may find (as I did) that sidetracks build themselves.
In my campaign we have had several instances where battles were fought twice.
First, they took a week and a half break after slaughtering the air temple.
Before they break they had cleared the orcs to the west, and on their retreat I mentioned that there is a blood stain from where the high priest died leading to the alter.
They didn't destroy the alter...I had it resurrect the high priest with a half-elemental template applied. He went to a neutral that he knew of in the complex, the druid Tarren.
When the PCs returned they fought a few human warriors that had been recruited, along with Tarren, his dire bear, and the half-elemental high priest.
Second, my PCs defeated several of the western bridge complex foes in their first attempt, before fleeing, receiving experience for hill giants, etc.
They rested 2 days before returning. D'Gran contacted the outer fane and received some help in the form of an Invisible Stalker. The stalker added an element to the 2nd run of that battle, and some experience as well.
In the end the stalker retreated before dying and is now reporting to Hedrack.
Anyway, 2nd runs of battles can provide some extra experience as the temples restock, call in extra aid, etc.
Warren
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 Infiniti2000
Verrik
(9/9/03 12:58 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
I have six players, but started with seven. They are only a quarter through the mines and are all eighth level. Encourage them to thoroughly investigate the Moathouse, ToEE, and Nulb and they should be more than fine XP-wise. Do NOT 'upscale', or as Siobharek calls it, 'boost'. And, yes, they feel definitely challenged. They, in fact, wonder how in the world can lower level parties even survive.
As an additional suggestion, should you need it, for a side adventure, try the BoVD side trek on the Goblins of IO Rach. Found in the Miscellaneous directory of Zans's site.
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Roland the red
Faen
(9/9/03 1:15 pm)
Reply
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Side Trek
The latest Dungeon (#102?) has an adventure for a party of about 6th or 7th that features a volcanic fire-filled cave, the mages who run the comples, fire creatures, and an artifact the is about to "put the fire out" as it is a gate to the paraelemental plane of ice. Perfect side trek material. If you look at Siobereks campaign log, he talks about a story arc where the dwarves of Rastor seek to regain the Stalagos mines...long story short, they worked a deal with the Azer in the modult to "cool" the volcano...a similar thing could happen with the Dungeon Module....
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arcane12
Faen
(9/9/03 1:23 pm)
Reply
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Re: Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
Yes, I would have to agree. With more than 4 characters things will be a bit easier at first, but it is still no walk in the park, and an incautious party can still get decimated early on (I started my thursday night group with four 5th level characters and they lost both the fighters to the bugbears).
The beauty of it is the area may have x challege rating encounters, but by tweaking how well the areas communicate you can turn an area that they should be going into (designed for their party level) into a deathtrap, or an area that would be a walkover (below their party level) into a good challenge. Alternately you can do the opposite and have the areas either go defensive, or just not care about their mates, and turn a deathtrap into something survivable. (slowly introduce more enemies rather than having them all turn up more or less at once)
I have found my six strong party (sunday game) is still only level 7 to 8, and they have cleared out the bugbears, most of the moathouse, Nulb, the Air temple (average CR 7), most of the Northern enterance, the water bridge, and most of the fire bridge (average CR 8, one nasty CR 10, came out to EL12!).
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Dax Doomslayer
Human
(9/9/03 2:50 pm)
Reply
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Re: Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
Ok - so I guess I'll use the sidetreks instead of adding to the encounters. However, I just found out that there may be a 7th character!! The guy is looking at a half-ogre cleric (or fighter - although isn't anything a half-ogre pretty much a fighter - lol).
Andorax, actually I do have the old Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun (WG4) and believe it or not, I've never run it. I'm an old time OD&D guy who has a lot of the older stuff. I'm curious as to your comment as to how to link the two. I did also grab the FOAs (Ministry of Winds and Caves of Ancient Secrets). It looks like I have a lot of reading / prep work to do prior to our game on Sunday! I appreciate everyones responses and keep them coming if you so choose! You guys have been incredibly helpful.
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Infiniti2000
Verrik
(9/9/03 7:55 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
Think twice about allowing the half-ogre. It is widely regarded as broken and that PC will quickly unbalance the group. I don't know if it hinders your group's style, but in most cases it will lead to boredom of the other players via a common chant, of "ho hum...red dragon, send in the ogre"
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Caedrel
Sibeccai
(9/9/03 8:28 pm)
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Re: Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
I don't know how "broken" the half ogre may be, but allowing a 7th level PC is going to dominate proceedings in a 4th level party... well, until the rest of them start catching up because of the weighted XP system, any way
The module can be a meatgrinder because of the numbers that can arrive at any given battle; I'd agree with the very good advice given previously on how to tune the difficulty of the encounters using tactics.
Part of the trend with some groups is, I suspect, that they deal with some or much of the Crater Ridge Mines with relative ease, then take on the Outer Fane and get their collective rears handed to them. I think it's a combination of trying to step up too early and the more powerful, smarter, and nearer opponents in the OF.
I'd also recommend that you figure out in advance how the party is going to restock / spend their treasure while battling through the Crater Ridge Mines - Rastor isn't big enough to supply the sorts of items the party is going to need, and the round trip to Verbobonc gets tired quickly. Check out what other people have done in this regard, including the Best of the Boards.
I bought WG4 after starting this module because I was wondering what the deal was with the four sided statues... I found it disappointing, actually. I'd be interested in your suggestions too, Andorax (my current thinking is to tie in the GDQ supermodule via the Elder Elemental Eye...)
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Siobharek 
Verrik
(9/9/03 11:08 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
He means a 7th character (there are 6 already), not a 7th level character.
Have half-ogres been corrected in 3.5? Maybe it's not that broken anymore.
As one who boosted (or upgraded) the entire CRM, I'll second Andorax' warning. Don't. Your party will not be underpowered.
Other than that, welcome aboard, and post all the questions you might have.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Andorax
Verrik
(9/10/03 6:38 am)
Reply
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Re: Questions on starting a Campaign using RttToEE
The general consensus in the Savage Species forum to "unbreak" the Half-0gre is this:
Change it from a 1-HD to a 2-HD creature.
Thus, with 2 HD and a LA of +1, you have a 3rd level PC that's "just" a Half-Ogre...or, in your PC's case, a Half-Ogre (2HD) 1st level Cleric.
This seems to reasonably balance it out.
As for WG4, I'll start a fresh thread for that.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
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