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Sobus Tooms
Human
(9/15/03 8:53 pm)
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New DM - Improved Invisibility Help!
OK, my group has been playing the RTTTOEE for almost 8 months now and it is my first real serious DMing experience. I've just run into a problem I was hoping some of you more experienced DM's could help me with.
The party consist of an 8th level sorcerer who can cast four 4th level spells/day. He has Improved Invisibility as one of his selected spells. The group is using the hit-and-run tactic and has been very effective so far. Every time they "hit", the party beefs up with the improved invisibility spell.
Since they are invisible they make quick work of most encounters. Most of the CRM creatures they've encountered take the defensive and try to fend off the invisible attackers best they can, but for the most part since the PC's get the 50% miss chance and are extremely difficulty to target the PC's are "walking through" most encounters.
I'd like to make it a bit more challenging for them, but I don't feel that throwing in all sorts of creatures that can "see invisibles" would be fair. And I'd like to play the adventure as close to "as written" as possible.
Any help from you more experienced DM's would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
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arcane12
Faen
(9/15/03 9:41 pm)
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Re: New DM - Improved Invisibility Help!
don't forget that there is quite a few clerics out there, and most of them have a dispel magic handy, or if not, once they hear of this band of adventurers running around attacking with improved invis, they will memorise a dispel, or even better a invisibility purge to give them a headache, and the fighter types will know to fall back to a cleric for help. Also don't forget to check which creatures have blindsight, tremorsense, etc. or even high listen scores. Where are they running around at the moment?
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Judex
Human
(9/15/03 10:18 pm)
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Re: New DM - Improved Invisibility Help!
Yea, have one person escape the encounter to warn others. Than have arcane caster do see invis on a scout or two to watch for the PC's, have a priest "minding there own business" with invisibily purge at the ready, looking alone, and a room full off ppl under invis sphere...
Once the PC's attack, have ppl with see invis give warning, inititive...do invis purge, than mob the PC's. Ensure one person from that area escapes to warn others.
Doing this will slow them down abit from that tactic.
I know the group I ran would have there halfling rogue scout ahead (and even just a lvl 8 halfling rogue can have a +15 to hide in the smallest cover), than once the scout saw some possitions, she would come back, get the coin with silence on it, go forward and toss it beyond the targets. Than the party would rush.
Many troglodytes died to the PCs doing this 
Good luck
Judex Vincit Omnia
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Cordo Crowfoot
Litorian
(9/16/03 2:04 am)
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Re: New DM - Improved Invisibility Help!
Another note, the duration of that spell was scaled back quite a bit for 3.5e, to 1 round/level. So converting to 3.5 alone should help stop the players from relying too heavily on this.
Another note -- remember what is good for the goose is good for the gander!
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madfox
Verrik
(9/16/03 2:48 am)
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Re: New DM - Improved Invisibility Help!
As others have pointed out, there are various counter measures against invisible opponents. Just remember that the clerics in the adventure can prepare different spells if the PCs give them time do so. Besides magical measures, there are also several mundane methods to at least alert the people for the pressence of invisible opponents. In my campaigns these mundane methods are actually so common that the players always expact them to be there, just as you can expact a lock on every house and an electronic alarm in the houses of the wealthier people in RL. Think of dogs trained to deal with invisible opponents (in RL one might dismiss a barking dog if they do not see anything in a typical fantasy setting that is unlikely), small gravel in front of important entrances, lines with small bells in front of doors or even something as simple as a small layer of water on the floor all do wonders. Finally, once can always place a dispel magic in a glyph of warding.
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Andorax
Verrik
(9/16/03 6:43 am)
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Re: New DM - Improved Invisibility Help!
Just a reality check here.
Also remember that the PCs are EARNING this ease. Their primary spellcaster is unloading his entire arsenal of high-level spells in order to make this happen. It's not something that's just casual, or done without effort on their parts.
How would you expect a party of 6th level PCs to do if their Sorceror unloaded his entire arsenal of fireballs into one or two encounters? Pretty dang good, right? For an 8th level party, this guy is again unloading his entire arsenal of 4ths...he's really using up a ton of resource.
Still, counters are in order to give the party some feeling of challenge. Here's another one to think about (It might have been mentioned already). Grapple. It's basic, simple, and straightforward, will have a low success rate but will represent a tactical attempt to contend with the problem in a logical manner.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
WarrenWright
Faen
(9/16/03 10:36 am)
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Right
Exactly Andorax.
In fact, grapple is a great means of dealing with it. Many creatures (trolls, for instance...the dire badger for another) have scent, and can pick out the direction of invisible PCs without error within 30 feet.
They can also locate exactly the invisible PCs if they get within 5' of them, which allows them a grapple attempt with the downside being a 50% miss chance.
So...that should help add some challenge.
Not to mention that the smarter opponents, once they hear about the PCs and/or their tactics can also look to outside resources for potions of see invisibility (I had D'Gran do this when the PCs had fled from an initial confrontation with him, and he was preparing for their return).
I also agree that in many cases the PCs' choice to unload all high level spell slots should buy them an advantage.
Warren
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 Infiniti2000
Verrik
(9/16/03 11:03 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: New DM - Improved Invisibility Help!
Good suggestions so far. I like having lots of dogs around, personally. They are cheap, effective, and can double as a food source in a pinch. 
"Finally, once can always place a dispel magic in a glyph of warding."
Actually, I don't think you can because the glyph requires a harmful spell. I know we discussed this before and it's open to interpretation, but I thought an opposing viewpoint should be mentioned. It's indirectly harmful, but similarly to summon monster not causing one to become visible, I would not allow dispel magic in a glyph of warding.
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WarrenWright
Faen
(9/16/03 11:58 am)
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I can see it
I see your argument, but will mention that dispel magic against enemies does dispel invisibility :-) Invis considers any spell targeting a foe or whos area of effect includes a foe to be an attack.
Of course that doesn't help anyone define a "harmful" spell. :-)
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Caedrel
Sibeccai
(9/16/03 10:25 pm)
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Re: Invisible? Him?
Just off the top of my head, the creatures against whom invisibility (improved or otherwise) is useless include:
* the destrachan near the Fire Temple complex
* the umber hulks
* the kuo-toa that make up the bulk of the Water Temple forces, not to mention the others that pop up about the place, like Mooliwik and the Water Bridge guard.
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arcane12
Faen
(9/16/03 11:11 pm)
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Re: Invisible? Him?
in regard to the glyph: I would rule that dispel can be put into a glyph, "If the spell summons creatures, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and attack." now a summon spell isn't harmful in of itself, but the outcome (a hostile creature is called forth) is undesirable, therefore it is a harmful spell .Harmful in this case, as it is not defined, encompasses not only direct damage spells, but other spells that have an undesirable effect. However it is a close call as it is a very grey area, but the effect is definately undesirable, so can be construed as harmful. Also how would a cure light wounds spell be thought of as? most creatures would not see this as harmful, but it damages undead so could it be thought of as harmful?
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Taxman66
Giant
(9/17/03 5:17 am)
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Re: Invisible? Him?
The converse is true with inflict wounds spell. Sure its harmful to living creatures... but maybe that Lich or Vampire has a few Inflict wounds glyphs along his escape tunnel so that he can get healed while fleeing or tactically retreat over them?
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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ronin
Faen
(9/19/03 2:39 pm)
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Re: Invisibility
As others have pointed out, I would not try to derail their efforts so quickly. They have spent resources in this area and should gain the benefits. One thing I would do however is step up the tactics of the enemy.
You need the enemy to know somehow the PCs use these tactics, then you can react. I would first start with some simple measures. Perhaps put some sort of flour or dust on the floor in key travel areas to alert the NPCs. You could have an area filled with a mist that would help people spot invisible creatures. I am sure there are many mundane ways to accomplish this so hopefully some others can chime in with ideas.
This will do two things. Make the enemy seem more realistic in their reactions and warn the PCs the enemy is onto their tactics. Perhaps they'll change them, perhaps they won't but at least they'll have some warning. It will also get you to a point where you can actively use smart tactics against invisible PCs without seeming underhanded as a DM. You may even want to leave a few letters lying around for the party to find warning them of "invisible" enemies and advice to prepare for them. Some of the major NPCs would be good choices to have these letters for the party to find.
I'd pick a battle in the future where you'd like to use smart tactics against invisibility and work towards that goal starting now. Start with simple stuff and escalate the measures until eventually you can pull out all of the stops. The Outer Fane is a good choice to hit a group hard if your group isn't there yet but you'll know whats best for your players.
Good luck and let us know how it goes in your campaign!
ronin
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Sobus Tooms
Human
(9/20/03 9:23 am)
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Re: Invisibility
Thanks everyone for all your input. This forum is great!
Based upon what I've read, I think Ronin has summed up my proposed plan. I will work in the counter measures slowly and allow the PC's to determine how they will react. I was thinking of having them find a slain messenger with a message saying something about "interlopers are trying to disrupt the workings of the Eye... they are using a hit-and-run tactic by hiding in the abandoned portions of the mines... Confirmed reports of invisible attackers... Be aware... Enclosed is a scroll of Invisibility Purge to assist... signed -Naquent"
The PC's will hopefully wonder why the messenger was slain. They won't know, but it will be their first hint of assistance by Vachran.
Again thanks for everyone's input!
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