D'Gran - Am I reading all this right?

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JRedGiant Memunite (10/15/03 6:06 pm) Reply	D'Gran - Am I reading all this right? All rules in this are 3.0. The description of the Gaseous Form (p207) spell indicates that the caster cannot cast spells which require verbal, somatic, material or focus componants, but mentions that spells that do not have these componant requirements (through Still or Silent feats) can be cast. Monster Manual (p144) indicates that the Ogre Mage has spell like abilities. Also, the half-fiend template (p216) gives Unholy Blight as a spell like ability. Monster Manual (p7) indicates that spell-like abilities are not spells and have no componant requirements. Am I missing something, or does this mean that D'Gran can use his abilities such as Cone of Cold and Unholy Blight while in Gaseous Form? Also, is this even a good idea? Granted, it gives him DR 20/+1, but it drops his AC to 12. I guess it would depend on his appraisal of the opponants...how likely are they to have magic weapons.
arcane12 Memunite (10/15/03 7:15 pm) Reply	Re: D'Gran - Am I reading all this right? That sounds like you have it right (if those rules you quoted are accurate, and they do sound it). As you said because of the fact that the party will almost certainly have a magic weapon each, if not +2 or better (Earth sword, Air sword, Dwarven Temple Warhammer-any parties depressed when the warhammer+2 becomes a MW warhammer?) so I don't think this will be too cheesy as it drops his AC to 12 If a creature has the ability to cast or go gaseous, then it's CR will be such that the party will have one or more magic weapons. Also I think he can only cone of cold and unholy blight 1/day? most of his at will spells kinda...suck... which is good I think my party had as much trouble with the ftr trolls as they had with D'Gran, except for that initial cone of cold - but only because I had the 3.5 D'Gran - the cone as per the module is pretty underpowered.
Infiniti2000 Cherub (10/15/03 8:11 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: D'Gran - Am I reading all this right? Yes, that's right, and no, it's not a good idea for him to go gaseous unless he is escaping somewhere that the PC's can't go. For example, it would be a good idea to say that the Western Bridge Complex has numerous fissures that D'Gran can escape through. Another good idea (I posted this in another thread) is for Tippesh to cast see invisibility on D'Gran, not herself. That'll help the big boy put the smack down.
Killiak Dynama (10/15/03 11:34 pm) Reply	Re: D'Gran - Am I reading all this right? Pfft, D'Gran is a bit of a @#%$ because of his lack of HP. He only has about 45 or so! In comes a charging barbarian who just so happens to be in rage, with a +2 weapon (cleric boost) and Bull Str. Now there goes 30 HP in one swing....
Infiniti2000 Cherub (10/16/03 5:10 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: D'Gran - Am I reading all this right? Well, D'Gran flies and has reach, so no one should be able to hit him without ranged weapons. If you want him to have more hit points, give him a potion of (bear's) endurance.
smetzger Memunite (10/16/03 5:42 am) Reply	Re: D'Gran - Am I reading all this right? *Quote:* Well, D'Gran flies and has reach, so no one should be able to hit him without ranged weapons. Thats certainly true for 3.0. However, with 3.5 his 'Face' is larger and thus when he is flying in the mines anyone should be able to reach him. - Scott who had D'Gran come back as a zombie.
Infiniti2000 Cherub (10/16/03 5:49 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: D'Gran - Am I reading all this right? He can still fly 5ft out of anyone else reach (above them). He reaches 10ft, barbarian reaches 5ft. D'Gran can hit, the barbarian cannot. Now, if there is no room to fly above the targets, then you're right.
JRedGiant Memunite (10/16/03 6:00 am) Reply	If that's the case Gaseous Form suddenly makes a lot of sense. Missile weapons with a +1 enhancement to beat DR are less common then melee weapons. Also, it occurs to me...couldn't he move into one of those "fissures" and cast from within it, giving himself 9/10 cover?
Infiniti2000 Cherub (10/16/03 6:26 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: If that's the case Now you're talking! That is downright mean!
arcane12 Memunite (10/16/03 11:30 am) Reply	Re: If that's the case actually technically he can only get 5 feet off the ground if even that - with 3.5 he would be 10'/10'/10' with 10' reach... so the best he would get is 1' off the ground unless he is in a room or cave... (unless those corridors are 20' high?) D'Gran would need a 20' high corridor as he is ~10' tall and the barb being 5' tall should also be able to reach the 5' square above him, so right underneath a flying D'Gran the barb would stand 5', reach 5', and D'Gran stands 10' - therefore needing 20' ceiling to avoid said Barb :/ Considering there are Hill Giants I guess it is quite possible that the ceiling should be at least 15' ? I know the opening out to the fire door IS 20'... just big enough for a HUGE dragon to fit ) *note for the unwary: don't piss off Chymon and run to her door.
JRedGiant Memunite (10/16/03 2:59 pm) Reply	Re: If that's the case The ceiling in the Western Bridge Complex is 15' high.Aside from flying above the bridge, I don't see D'Gran having enough room to avoid melee attacks by flying.
Ordos1 Memunite (10/16/03 4:31 pm) Reply	D'Gran - Am I reading all this right? *Quote:* Monster Manual (p7) indicates that spell-like abilities are not spells and have no componant requirements. [\QUOTE] I agree they have no MATERIAL components, but i'm not sure about verbal and somatic. I think the point behind not having material components is that a monster with some inate power still needs to do something to cast a spell. Otherwise, i believe it would read: Spell-like abilities are treated as being Silent-Still spells. This is NOT what it states. This would also mean a monster can just stand there (all innocent ) and just cast a spell -- even tied up! Is this what this one line of text is REALLY saying. I'd be careful.... Thats my 2 cents
Ordos1 Memunite (10/16/03 4:33 pm) Reply	D'Gran - Am I reading all this right? *Quote:* Monster Manual (p7) indicates that spell-like abilities are not spells and have no componant requirements. I agree they have no MATERIAL components, but i'm not sure about verbal and somatic. I think the point behind not having material components is that a monster with some inate power still needs to do something to cast a spell. Otherwise, i believe it would read: Spell-like abilities are treated as being Silent-Still spells. This is NOT what it states. This would also mean a monster can just stand there (all innocent ) and just cast a spell -- even tied up! Is this what this one line of text is REALLY saying. I'd be careful.... Thats my 2 cents
ZansForCans Cherub (10/16/03 7:06 pm) Reply	Re: D'Gran - Am I reading all this right? Both 3.0 and 3.5 are quite clear about this though (the original post was paraphrasing). This is from the 3.5 description of spell-like abilities: "though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components" They do require a standard action and provoke an AoO. *Quote:* This would also mean a monster can just stand there (all innocent ) and just cast a spell -- even tied up! Is this what this one line of text is REALLY saying. 'fraid so Knock them out! Group Editing & Authoring Support flexible campaign management for the web info :: demo
Cordo Crowfoot Dynama (10/16/03 10:21 pm) Reply	Re: If that's the case *Quote:* The ceiling in the Western Bridge Complex is 15' high.Aside from flying above the bridge, I don't see D'Gran having enough room to avoid melee attacks by flying. Wow, then the face changes have really hurt D'Gran. That's too bad. I'm glad my players finished that area and faced it at the proper challenge level before this change, because if he can't stay out of reach with flying D'Gran is going down fast.
JRedGiant Memunite (10/17/03 5:25 am) Reply	Face Changes? Cordo, this has nothing to do with 3.5 face changes. D'Gran is 10' tall, like all ogre mages, and the ceiling is 15' high. That means he can get 5' off the ground at max, even in 3.0 rules, unless a) you change the ceiling heights by DM fiat, b) he moves outside to the bridge itself, or c) he polymorphs into a pixie or something else real tiny, which I don't see as being a really good idea for him. I think changing the ceiling heights is reasonable, since many of the occupants of the Western Bridge Complex are about 10' tall (trolls, D'Gran and hill giants). Still, I think D'Gran has plenty of other tactical options...hiding in the vents for 9/10 cover, the ever popular "get behind the meat shield", and hit and run tactics that allow him to regenerate and then come back and nail the party. Ah, who am I kidding...he's gonna end up a greasy smear on Ygdal's greataxe...
madfox Cherub (10/17/03 5:30 am) Reply	Re: Face Changes? I wonder what happens if somebody casts an obscuring mist spell with D'gran wandering around in gaseous form. Sounds a lot more effective then simply becoming invisible...
Cordo Crowfoot Dynama (10/17/03 7:22 am) Reply	Re: Face Changes? I've always abstracted the 5x5 2-D face size into the 3rd dimension as well, which I have seen many many other people do. Who says you have to fly extended at full height? But again with the new face changes it is clearly impossible.