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Lunus Quelnegarde
Memunite
(10/25/03 11:01 pm)
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Poetic Justice?
Greetings again, and sorry about posting two topics. I had originally combined the two, but it became very very long.
I believe my other topic will be easily answered in one or two posts. This might not be so easy.
Really this belongs on the DM's Only forum, except there's a few spoilers in it. I considered generalizing it and posting there... but I believe only the folks here can grasp the insanity and vileness of Tharizdun (... and how Vile any act is that might serve Him).
Essentially, my question is: Should sacrificing a Cleric of Tharizdun to Tharizdun in exchange for a gift be considered an evil act?
Let me explain, it's far more rational with a backstory.
Ok, the half-orc paladin in my group (named Rannox) has a bad history with those Tharizdun Sacrificial Alters. It all began with his habit of running off restlessly in advance of the group. I have implemented a timeline IMC. It gives the party a game year before all 4 elemental princes are free. The players did not know this, but I feel it adds some realism to the game.
The party was travelling back to Verbobonc to resurrect a few allies after a hard battle with the Earth Temple. Rannox, feeling the pressure of the Dark God returning, decided not to give the ToAC a break while the party ress'd. He and his cohort (Rajik of the Drawmij) decided it would be good to stay back and keep an eye on things.
Well, as soon as the party wheeled off Rannox and Rajik went off to *advance* into the CRM... just to "scout" what's ahead. Now Rajik might be an OK scout, but every bard on the Flanaess should know by now how Rannox is the embodiment of the "Smite Evil" ability. He may be a paladin, but that doesn't mean he won't hesitate to open up a can of whoop-shorts on anyone who ever *thought* about serving Tharizdun.
So what that basically means is they will "scout" as far as their -5 sneak checks get them, then proceed to smash and bash.
It so happens that the Water Temple hears of the Earth Temple's defeat. They move in to take over the remnants of the Trog's... and are curiously intrigued by the tales of a "Fierce orc, wielding weapons of light, and laying a wake of death in his path." They decide to seek out this warrior (whom they consider just plain mean... and fail to regard he's working against their masters.) After some parley, they recruit Rannox and Rajik to help with the Fire Temple assault.
Hmm.. I should cut this a bit, and just say they made it to the Fire Temple. Tessimon was present but caught off guard by Nilbools attack. With Firre she started the ritual... (as the DM I was hoping to catch one of the kuo toans off guard with the dark tentacle and scare Rannox.) Well, as it turned out, Rajik happened to be up there fighting Tessimon when the ritual was completed. Tess bailed down the ramp and Rajik was caught and sacrificed by the arm. Tessimon wished for a 5 Ring of Protection. Bamf.
Nilbool (his disintegrate failed earlier.. doing 5d6 damage) took this opportunity to recall himself and the monitor out. Rannox was stuck in the fire temple with only unfriendlies. How he escaped is another tale.
Later Rannox and the others came back and killed Tessimon and crashed the Fire Temple. Rannox took with him the ring which he believed to be the essence of his good friend Rajik. Also, he studied how the alter worked extensively (in one of those books) to try and find if he could true resurrect Rajik.
...Skip ahead 3 months. The party is breaking into the Greater Temple in the Recovered ToEE. Faced with the 4 Doom Dreamers and a Succubus there, a violent melee breaks forth. Rannox, who has charged Susain Carun in order to save Agman gets attacked from behind by Thuchos. The ritual is already well under way, but Rannox kills Susain before she can use the tentacle rod on the egg. Thuchos and Rannox battle until Thuchos is harmed from behind by the party cleric. The hound Archon pulls Agman from the altar as Rannox delivers one last subdual blow to Thuchos. Quickly placing Thuchos's body on the altar, he picks up Susain's tentacle rod, invokes it, and... the eye/egg dissapears, and Thuchos is sacrificed to big T.
Rannox, being the only one to know what the altar does, wishes for "Something to help up defeat Tharizdun." After the players and I laughed at the irony and Poetic Justice here, I decided a ring of one wish appeared. I know, it's a little powerful, but I figured since Rannox didn't wish specifically, the wish was preserved... in ring form.
After the session ended I started to wonder... Rannox forgot what the egg did... and felt that if the tentacle didn't get Thuchos it would have gotten one of them. Hence his choice. I'm willing to let the whole sacrificing a soul to a Dark God thing slide, since it was Thuchos's allies who started the ritual. The only thing that bothers me personally is that Rannox *wished* for an item. Even if it was to be used destroying Tharizdun.
I don't know. My judgment is biased. I really like Rannox as a character. Even though he is mean and brutal, he is always fighting on the good guys side. He is 0% pansy, and makes an awesome paladin from a "Smite Evil" standpoint. I would also hate for him to lose his paladinhood now, right at the end. Ever since he heard of Imix he's been anticipating a fight (all to do with his hatred of the Fire Temple specifically). My group know that Imix is "free"... but since I've talked about him as a bit of a God (look in the Defenders of the Faith) they figure there will be no direct confrontation. This disappoints Rannox, strangely enough, who wants ultimate revenge for Rajik against Imix.
Should I let it slide? Was this a deliberate evil act? Any opinions?
I realize this post could have been much more to the point... but I always get caught up in telling the tales my party has woven. I hope you enjoyed reading about them some.
I really should start a log...
Anyways,
-LQ
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Cordo Crowfoot
Cherub
(10/26/03 2:11 am)
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Re: Poetic Justice?
It was an evil act. Arguably not a "deliberate" evil act, but I believe it doesn't matter in the standard D&D objective evil morality model.
Since there are extenuating circumstances, it wasn't completely deliberate, and since his behavior has been exemplary through the rest of the game, I would think that he should probably be able to get his paladinhood back through a simple atonement. This shouldn't set the player back too far (maybe even someone else in the party can provide it) while still reminding them that playing around with evil altars has consequences.
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Killiak 
Dynama
(10/26/03 3:01 am)
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Re: Poetic Justice?
I'm with Cordo on this.
However, there is a nice little thing you could run 
When Rannox made that wish: "Something to destroy Tharizdun with", there was a thought in the back of his mind about Rajik.
The power of the altar sucked Rajik's soul into the Ring of Wish and he will emerge when the ring's magic is activated. So on first sight the ring appears as a Ring of Wish, but there is greater magic at work here: A Godly True Ressurection stored by means of soul trapping.
Have him slightly warped though;
Sreaks of purple on his skin, sudden outbursts of maniacal laughter. Put him down as Chaotic Neutral, so he doesn't register as evil and make it a slow slow slow progress for the Palladin to get his old friend back as he was.
Fits the theme, makes the Palladin happy and adds some GREAT RP
Edit: Just reread about Rannox' hatred of Imix. Ifyou use this then have Rajix ramble about Imix now and then. How he scorched his soul, make him seem far off then Purple fiery streaks on his skin. It will make Rannox thirst even more for smiting the Prince 
Edited by: Killiak at: 10/26/03 3:05 am
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msherman
Kalkydrite
(10/26/03 8:05 am)
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Re: Poetic Justice?
I agree; it was definitely an evil act, but not "premeditated", so atonement should be a valid way to regain his paladinhood.
However, I'm thinking that keeping the ring _would_ be a premeditated evil act. This could give you a great RP opportunity: when the atonement is performed (presumably ASAP), have it fail because the cleric senses that in his soul he's still harboring the guilt of an ongoing evil act; he's continuing to profit from his evil. That'll make him have to choose; keep the ring and sacrifice his paladinhood to save the world, or give up the ring (give him a One Ring-like quest to destroy it in a purifying way) to be able to atone and remain a paladin.
If he decides to keep the ring, _and_ in the end it gets used for good to defeat Tharizdun, reward him by restoring his paladinhood (and optionally converting any non-paladin levels he took in the interim to paladin) -- kind of like Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac.
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Renegade
Cherub
(10/26/03 6:51 pm)
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Re: Poetic Justice?
I would not strip him permanently. Maybe not even immediately, if he didn't realize what he was doing. But he would feel the need to atone, and I sometimes do a little thing where the paladin's powers start to function less efficiently. He has less points for lay on hands, less damage from smite evil, and so forth. If he doesn't atone it gets worse. He'll eventually lose his power, but not before loads of warning. Now, for deliberate evil acts done for evil purposes, I strip the paladin of his status immediately, but it doesn't seem like this was one of those times. Give him a chance.
"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."--John F. Kennedy |
Roland the red
Memunite
(10/26/03 9:27 pm)
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test
vvv
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Roland the red
Memunite
(10/26/03 9:38 pm)
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Paladinhood
Sorry about the previous post, I tried posting, but it said no account, but aparrently it was user error...
Anyway. I thionk the paladin should be penalized in full accordance with a fall from grace. As mentioned previously, there are no shades of grey in the D&D universe. Evil is real and tangible. Forget for a moment the sacrifice on the alter and consider this: He KNOWINGLY and PURPOSEFULLY used an altar of EVIL for personal gain. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" gentleman, and to 'defeat Tharzidun' sounds good, but the act was done just the same. That proverbial road, in D&D's narrow cosmology, is a very short road indeed, perhaps even a single step.
That said, I don't think the fall from grace should not be redeemable. A quest from the paladins order, to somehow redress this wrong, then an atonement spell would suffice. Perhaps the paladins quest is to destroy the altar, but of course other factions seek to gain its power and try to stop him...just another encounter to play and beef 'em all up for the final showdown....and for the REALLY bad things awaiting in the Inner Fane (paladins beware!)
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ZansForCans 
Cherub
(10/26/03 9:38 pm)
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Consummate v's!
"This guy wouldn't know majesty if it came up and bit him in the face..."
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Cordo Crowfoot
Cherub
(10/26/03 9:50 pm)
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Re: Consummate v's!
I agree with msherman on the ring issue.
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 Infiniti2000
Cherub
(10/27/03 8:10 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Consummate v's!
I also agree with the above. Another thing you could do with the ring that would truly be poetic justice, Tharizdun-style, is the following conversation:
DM: Don't you wish you knew what the ring did?
Rannox: Yeah!
DM: Granted. It used to be a ring of three wishes with one wish left.
Of course, don't really do this, but it would be fun.
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Andorax
Cherub
(10/27/03 10:11 am)
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Re: Consummate v's!
Imix's Thorn
Intelligent Ring of Major Fire Resistance (28,000)
Lawful Evil, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14 (5,000)
Bless allies 3/day, 10 ranks Knowledge (Religion) (6,000)
Devoted to the Grand Sultan of the Efreet, and crafted for his purposes, Imix's Thorn was created as part of an ongoing effort to overthrow Imix's rule over evil fire-based creatures, and allow the Sultanate to claim far greater power accordingly.
My take on the matter is that the Paladin did knowingly, and willingly, complete the ritual and seek the gain from it. I tend to try to be fairly lenient with Paladins, but on this one I'd have to say he's fallen, plain and simple.
Imix's Thorn will sieze upon this, and will offer him power (eg Blackguard) in return for a new set of oaths, the foremost among them being the destruction of Imix.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
msherman
Kalkydrite
(10/27/03 2:42 pm)
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Imix's Thorn
Love the idea, Andorax, but your pricing isn't quite right: 14/10/14/two lesser is 4000gp, not 5000gp. Also, the total price for that ring is only 38k; I'd bump it up to closer to 50k, since that's what the sacrifice grants:
Imix's Thorn II
Intelligent Ring of Major Fire Resistance (28,000)
Lawful Evil, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 16, Speech, Reads, 60' Darkvision, Hearing (6,000)
Bless allies 3/day (1,000)
10 ranks Knowledge (Religion) (5,000)
Hold Person on an enemy 3/day (6,500)
Ego: 10 (or 12 if you include +2 for Major Fire Resistance)
Total cost: 46,500gp
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Andorax
Cherub
(10/27/03 3:30 pm)
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Re: Imix's Thorn
My bad on the mentality pricing...and either version works fine.
Just as a reminder, it's *up to* 50,000...that doesn't mean it has to scrape the ceiling.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
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