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Renegade Cherub (10/26/03 12:21 pm) Reply	Okay, how to start? I'm thinking of running RttToEE next chance I get. I've heard its a PC killer, but in what way? Do the PCs have to screw up in some way? Or is it just that full of inescapable deathtraps? My players have quite the grasp of combat tactics by now; will that help? Also, what character classes should they go for? Is a paladin just plain old doomed, or is he an asset? What is required in the skill department? I'm guessing plain old bashing just won't cut it. Advice? Comments? "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."--John F. Kennedy
arcane12 Memunite (10/26/03 3:49 pm) Reply	here's some (useful?) advice It CAN be a PC killer... for the full adventure plan of anywhere between 4 and 40 deaths $:\$ It comes down to what sort of GM are you (where you sit on the evil GM scale) and how reckless/unlucky/new your players are. I would place myself at a 3/10 on the evil GM scale, and yet I have one party who has had 6 deaths, versus one that has had two, and they are about halfway through. Any character class is good for this one, and I would think a paladin would work out quite well, as there is no real nasty nasty anti-paladin events. (except maybe Thrommel, but he is more anti-party...) It is well written enough that most approachs the party takes to the adventure are covered, they CAN hack and slash, or talk their way arround, but eventually, unless you give out rolepalying XP, and XP for avoided encounters, they will have to kill something, if only to get levels. There are a few unavoidable fights, but most (depending on how the party acts -paladins need not apply-) can be avoided if you want them to play a talky party. It is possible for the party to walk into death traps, but most will give hints to a well adventured party, and the few that don't are very rare. Mostly the PC killer rep comes from too much ability for the PC's to bite off more than they can chew (wow only wussy orcs so far? lest charge into this place and take on all comers) but there is a place or two that is quite nasty for the planned PC level - for example the dragon at the start (in the moathouse) can be a killer as ol' Del, while being their warning sign, comes of kinda looney and is usually ignored to the detriment of the party. Also D'Gran and his cronies can be a real killer as they are placed in among some much easier encounters. I have heard the Blackgaurd Vampire can be a killer, and I can see the Huge red dragon as taking out a few players, but usually most enoucnters are fine. As a final note, I would say the adventure can drag on a bit in the mines as it turns out into a dungeon crawl to level the PC's, but it is still fun and the adventure is a masterpeice to GM
Renegade Cherub (10/26/03 4:05 pm) Reply	Re: here's some (useful?) advice Well, my players are all experienced tacticians. They will flank, trip, disarm, and overrun their way to victory. And only one of my players tends to play his paladins lawful stupid, so the one who wants to play a paladin should be fine. My PCs have managed to get themselves out of most jams fairly well. Unless they are just seriously outclasses, they're usually fine. They have a feel for the battlemat that I drilled into them. I have a thread in D&D Miscellaneous entitled Combat School, if you want to see how. "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."--John F. Kennedy
Cordo Crowfoot Cherub (10/26/03 4:08 pm) Reply	Re: here's some (useful?) advice Actually I would recommend against having a paladin in the party. A lot of the role playing potential in the mines will be cut off by the paladin's strict code of not associating with evil. The party can hack and slash their way through, but it will be much more fun, memorable, and have more depth without a typical paladin demanding that everything be done their way.
Renegade Cherub (10/26/03 4:20 pm) Reply	Re: here's some (useful?) advice Our paladins are far from typical. I don't push the Code to ridiculousness like many DMs seem to do. "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."--John F. Kennedy
Cordo Crowfoot Cherub (10/26/03 4:35 pm) Reply	Re: here's some (useful?) advice It's not just DMs but players, and one thing that is made crystal clear in the class description is that the paladin cannot knowingly associate with evil creatures. If the player plays that by the book it will be hard to join with the water temple in the attack on the fire temple, for example.
Renegade Cherub (10/26/03 4:37 pm) Reply	Re: here's some (useful?) advice Oh, all right. "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."--John F. Kennedy
Infiniti2000 Cherub (10/27/03 8:12 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: here's some (useful?) advice I disagree with Cordo in that I think a paladin is viable. Case in point: Xaod the Slayer. Monte obviously intended that a paladin is a viable PC. However, Cordo's points are still valid and you should be aware of what having a paladin might represent. It will certainly present challenges for the DM and players alike.
Cordo Crowfoot Cherub (10/27/03 8:56 am) Reply	Re: here's some (useful?) advice Err... I said it isn't recommended. I never said it isn't viable - quite a difference. Obviously if you are dead set on playing a paladin and/or having one in the party, it can be done, it just has major repercussions (which the players may not realize when selecting classes, meaning that this arguably calls for some DM guidance). Anyway if you ask me Xaod is a drunk from the stress of trying to make it through the module as a paladin.
Renegade Cherub (10/27/03 9:43 am) Reply	Re: here's some (useful?) advice Well, I'm not dead set on it. The player is. I won't stop him unless I have reason to believe that he'd have zero chance. "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."--John F. Kennedy
Lunus Quelnegarde Memunite (10/27/03 11:12 am) Reply	Re: Okay, how to start? Cordo's right that a lot of the internal temple politics will not involve the party as much as without one. But even a good aligned group won't have much opportunity to talk with the cultists. IMO a paladin works great in this campaign. Think about it: a dark god is coming back to destroy the world... why wouldn't the forces of light have a paladin on their side? Since nearly every enemy is evil, the paladin's powers work very nicely in any encounter. The only concern about playing a paladin I see is that the player will be fairly tested by the dark side. I'm sure a few opportunities to go blackguard will come up. Being such a brutal and evil place, sometimes you will see a change on your player's characters... as they start to use the tactics of the enemy, or get tempted by some of the darker tools here. I use this quote to define my campaign: "He who fights with monsters must take care that he does not become a monster." - Nietzsche It definitely holds true. One paladin is permanently an ex-paladin after switching half way to blackguard (all he had left to do was commune) then pulling himself out. He later became disheartened and left the group... his soul permanently haunted. Many of my other characters are somehow affected by the darkness. I think having a good paladin will help them through the fight and having a paladin that may fall will add tons of experience to the adventure. In any case, a paladin won't get in the way IMO. Paladins always add their own spin on any group... and it's likewise here. YMMV.
LostSoul Memunite (10/27/03 4:27 pm) Reply	Paladins Don't forget that Paladins have Undetectable Alignment on their spell list. The point being that they are not "forbidden" to work against evil using subterfuge. Of course, in your campaign, things can go how you wish.
Cordo Crowfoot Cherub (10/27/03 7:47 pm) Reply	Re: Paladins That logic doesn't work out as Undetectable Alignment is usable for more than just using subterfuge, especially when you remember that a high level paladin would leave a lingering aura of law/good wherever he walks without this spell, or that they may not want detect law/good to give away their position. The SRD reads "... a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code." Operative word there being never. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't houserule that out but if you are playing by the book, I don't believe a paladin would be able to accept the water temple's offer to work together, as they would be associating with the water temple, if only for a short time. My bad taste on paladins in this campaign comes from two different sources. First, my own campaign started with a paladin. This caused some friction within the group when as often happens, the paladin's code made her insist certain things be done certain ways, and not budge at all. Also, all thought of subterfuge in assaulting the CRM main gate was discarded as the paladin was in the party and wouldn't "lie". This is similar to the second source. As I've mentioned in my campaign log, one of my players is a WotC employee who played paladins (two actually due to deaths) in an ongoing WotC RttToEE campaign before coming over to mine. Again, in that group there was a lot of frustration that having a paladin in the group limited their options in approaching the temple. This led to things like some of the party members sneaking off to make secret deals with the temple, and the party attacking the paladin at one point to get him to shut up and let them use subterfuge. The real problem to me is that a single player's class choice dictates to the entire party what they can or can't do. That limits the fun for many people. So if I were re-starting this campaign for some reason and a player asked to run a paladin, I would let all the players know that this will have an significant effect on the type of strategies they will be employing, and make sure that everyone is ok with it.
Renegade Cherub (10/27/03 8:11 pm) Reply	Re: Paladins Okay, I have this to say to that. "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."--John F. Kennedy
Lunus Quelnegarde Memunite (10/27/03 10:51 pm) Reply	Re: Okay, how to start? Not to turn this into another paladin debate but... I don't think the paladin's code is that rigid. I think a paladin is a valuable party member... and is able to use tactical subterfuge. Instead of going over why I think that... I guess more importantly it will come down to who is the DM... and who is the player. IMC the paladins weren't that bad. It was tough for em, but I didn't feel like they were out of place in the module at any time. The paladin was usually in the front leading the forces against evil. Always a source of inspiration, even post mortem. In Cordo's campaign they seriously got in the way... to the point of inner group rivalry at some points (and that is known to be a leading cause of TPK). Generally the paladin made the group a far less effective team than what they could have been. So Renegade, having read your take on paladins, I think a paladin will do fine. Monte didn't have anything out for them while he was writing this. But I recommend you take the paladin's player aside and talk to him about what you both think a paladin can and cannot do. Make sure that you both come to even grounds about what is "pursuing the code too far." (eg. "I won't try to take the Cultists by surprise - that's not honorable!") That might iron out some dangers and conflict ahead of time. Of course... some group conflict is always good...
Cordo Crowfoot Cherub (10/28/03 6:22 am) Reply	Re: Okay, how to start? Wha? You have a five page thread with many and various opinions to say in response to me? Ok... Well in that case here is what I have to say in response to you: www.loc.gov/ Just to clarify... When LostSoul said "subterfuge" above I read "lying". That is what informed my response above. But to me it is changeing the spin to say "tactical subterfuge", which can simply mean using tricky tactics against the enemy. I hever said they can't use "tactical subterfuge". However, if you are saying "tactical subterfuge" means it is ok for them to associate with evil characters (i.e. working with the water temple) I respectfully disagree. Edited by: Cordo Crowfoot at: 10/28/03 6:28 am
Infiniti2000 Cherub (10/28/03 6:33 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Okay, how to start? Whoa, tough one to respond to, Renegade. Seriously, it's all about having fun. If the player WANTS to play a paladin, do what you can to allow him/her to have fun. If the group likes the hack and slash more than extra RP, then let the paladin follow the Code strictly. If not, then be more lenient on the paladin and let the player know about it; that's it's okay to talk first and to even sometimes work with them for the greater good when confronted and surrounded by potentially insurmountable evil (e.g. like the CRM and then OF). So, my final vote is to allow the paladin and play it by ear, adjusting the Code as needed.
grimbold Memunite (10/28/03 8:28 am) Reply	Re: Okay, how to start? Hmm. I think if you want to play a paladin, you will first have to check whether your ideas of playing by the code match those of your DM. The code should be set before the paladin sets out. There was a great article in Dragon Magazine a looong time ago, "get your priorities straight". There are also good rules on the code in "the quintessential paladin" by Mongoose, although I wouldn�t allow most of the extra feats and rules in that book imc.
Lunus Quelnegarde Memunite (10/28/03 12:00 pm) Reply	Re: Okay, how to start? I'll break up what I meant by subterfuge... actually I'll come again without using the word. Yes I meant "tricky tactics." Ambushes, ruses, infiltrations, even assassinations so long as they give the assailant a fighting chance Maybe I shouldn't use the word assassination, as it has a different context in D&D. What I mean is sneaking into a single enemies chamber then fighting him... with the door closed. No, he doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell, but what else can you do? Let him get his friends? I guess singling opponents out is what I mean. So long as it's in pursuit of defeating the enemy, I don't have much problem with it. It's similar for lying. A paladin would feel wrong about lying to someones face, but that doesn't mean he has to talk. In the case of dressing up like cultists to get access to certain areas I would allow the paladin to go along so long as he didn't lie. Now the paladin probably wouldn't like this, and would be waiting for the opportunity to answer this question: Lone Cleric "Are you cultists? I haven't seen you before." Paladin "Actually, no. We're the good guys." smite As for working with the water temple, here is my take on it. "Associate" in the context it is written seems like "ally" or "party member." The paladin could have an evil neighbor without rushing over to kill him. He might leave a lot of annoying pamphlets at his door but killing or throwing him out would be lawless. The paladin might even try to open a repertoire with the evil doer. But he wouldn't ever put himself on the evil doers team. So when a paladin decides to aid the water temple in destroying the fire temple - knowing full well that he will attack the water temple next - that is fine by me. Even if the paladin "befriends" a kuo toan, and saves his life/teaches him the ways of goodness in private, that is great. Where the danger of this lies, however, is if the paladin starts to get comfortable there and figures he'll just pass over the water temple in the grand scheme of things. Or if he starts legitimately working for the same goals as them (taking over the CRM - not releasing T) Then he has lost his paladinhood. I try not to have the paladin's code of ethics interfere with dialog. What's the greater triumph of Good... killing a goblin, or converting a goblin? I know the latter is very rare, but heck, if the goblin doesn't immediately attack you it's worth a shot. Really though, it comes down to DMs and players style.
Renegade Cherub (10/28/03 12:31 pm) Reply	Re: Okay, how to start? Grimbold: I am the DM. Yes, Lunus, we agree on the paladin's code. I just picked up the Book of Exalted Deeds, after giving it a thorough review in the gaming shop. (I like it, but my tastes are different from a lot of other gamers'.) I like the views of what Good (not good, Good) means. And I have read the Book of Vile Darkness's definition of Evil, but I do not own that book. I think many of the things in there will go into use in the upcoming PC-slaughter. "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."--John F. Kennedy
arcane12 Memunite (10/28/03 12:51 pm) Reply	Re: Okay, how to start? If it is possible what is that definition of good? I usually try to enforce the 'respect for life' bit as much as I can giving the fact the party is adventurers and need to kick unholy ass most the time. Does doing things to an evil person count as not and evil act (one thing I was against was the party beheading corpses to stop the EEE clerics from raising people) does the book suggest being harsh, or lenient? (I also have not read the definition of evil, as I can not justify spending NZD$90 for a paragraph or two).