Hedrack and Thrommel --- died too easy! What did I do wrong?

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JoeSchmoe Memunite (11/9/03 9:28 pm) Reply	Hedrack and Thrommel --- died too easy! What did I do wrong? I posted a short account of my group's first run-in with Hedrack here: pub102.ezboard.com/fokayy...3358.topic I'm moving to England in a few weeks so I wanted to speed them along, so I gave them a couple of hints on how to find Tulian's Eye and said there was a travelling mage going through Rastor that wrote True Resurrection scrolls for them (just to speed things up, I'd normally never do that). So the cleric cast ethereal jaunt and word of recall on himself, wafted into Hedrack's room and grabbed the fighter's stuff so we could get him re-equipped and move on with the adventure. So the party decided to use a couple of ethereal spells to go into Hedrack's room and surprise attack him - I didn't know to make them roll Will saves for forbiddance while they were ethereal but 3 of the 5 failed and had to run out. Hedrack ran for his tentacle rod (on a rack) and avoided 2 attacks of opportunity, avoided getting tripped, then got grappled by the druid-turned-bear and was dragged outside the room where the rest of the party slaughtered him. As for Thrommel...well, I took a couple of minutes to really pore over his stats and abilities when the thief opened the door to his chamber, and decided to have Thrommel wait until they activated the tentacle trap in the next room, which they did. After everyone crowded in the room trying to kill the tentacles (the book should have something in there about what happens if the glass is broken - I said the tentacles went away, partly to speed up things), Thrommel appears next to the sorcerer, comes out of gaseous form, tries to grapple to drain blood, fails, then does his one and only hit on the sorcerer as he's running away (AoO), gets hit by the fighter, fails gaze attacks on the fighter and sorcerer, doesn't hit the fighter with 3 slam attacks and gets killed by the fighter. After all the reading of what people had done with Thrommel and how he could help/hinder the party, etc., it was a real drag to have him killed after 3 rounds or so. I even gave him a lower CR (13 instead of 14) for experience purposes since he was so easy to kill (or I played him so wrong that he was that easy - does anyone else do that?). Now I have to read up on the mind flayer to really try to do some damage! But I suppose this makes up for the last session where the fighter had destruction cast on him and the group ran away after 2 rounds. And the players did find the temple room (area 23) and get all freaked out there, so they know they're dealing with the big baddies.
Lunus Quelnegarde Memunite (11/9/03 11:09 pm) Reply	Re: Hedrack and Thrommel --- died too easy! What did I do wr I don't know what to say that will help you, since the encounters are both already over... but I can console you by saying that it isn't the first time it's happened. Hedrack killed 9 party members alone. I love the guy. I took about 3 hours to research every last spell I could possibly take with him. After he tried to assassinate the players, he decided it was worth his time to scry on them a bit (and they killed Tessimon, who IMC was sexually involved with him). He saw them fight a few battles and figured out their tactics. First thing he did was destruction on the sorcerer with the brutal enervate spell. Well.. I won't go into detail here. But he almost got a TPK by himself, then almost got one later with Naquent and Thrommel as well. The third time he had only Ukemil with him (Thrommel and Varachan had betrayed him, Chymon wouldn't help, and Naquent was disintegrated) and he still took out half the party before falling. I would have liked for him to escape... but he's much too insane to retreat and let the party win the Outer Fane. That and he was a little overconfident this time, figuring he had defeated the party for good (it took them a whole month in game to recover from last time)... and not knowing Thrommel had betrayed him. Thrommel only fought the party once, but resented Hedrack enough to let them in for the price of his freedom. Hedrack figured it was Thrommel that had secretly helped the party along, and in the end, Thrommel did just that out of spite. Thrommel is more famous IMC for unleashing a vampire scourge on Hommlet to slow the part down. Hommlet's size went down by a third... (most because the party was inept at handling this problem) It makes my heart a little sadder to know Thrommel and Hedrack will leave no bloody legacy in others games. I loved these two. Hedrack is the reason I play clerics so well now... I learned by memorizing what every cleric spell he could take did. But, as I said, I have other battles which I am not proud of. The First and Third were easily swept up by my players. They both were caught off guard... well here's some detail: Party reaches the Triad's level in the Black Spike. Party has heard of beings named the First, Second, and Third, but never encountered them. They are frightened, figuring the First is far more powerful than Hedrack. They open the First's door. He is meditating and torturing himself in a daily ritual to become close to Tharizdun. The party (for once) has made a quick strike, and no one knows they are coming. The First starts up a little bit of a witty banter. He doesn't have his helmet on, so they actually think he is a prisoner here (look at his room). He doesn't confirm this, but skirts the issue, saying he is preparing, and that they should prepare too. Says "Be careful of the fights you pick, for your enemies might have already won." Then he walks into the Third's room and closes the door. The party doesn't try to stop him! Then the party loots his room. The Illusionist sits at the First's desk and begins reading the ledgers! What the heck? They all make their save on the symbol of death, or dispel it... I forget which. So they are all fine. So the First and Third jump in, fully decked out, and attack the looters... who haven't even done their last minute buffing. The party is surprised by this attack, (like, the players were surprised that they got attacked, even after they realized it was the First's room, and the he had simply walked away) and run away in the first round. Except the cleric of Pelor... who instead of running, moves 20 feet back then casts a spell. When the party yells at him to run, he says that he is. But they point out that when he turns to attack, the First and Third can attack him back by taking their move actions. This continues for 2 rounds, as the 3 at the bottom of the stairs hear their friend get overwhelmed and die. They hide as long as they can, until the Third moves to the top of the stairs to see if they fled. The illusionist fires his readied prismatic spray and turns her to stone. She falls down the stairs and hits the druid... but the sorcerer and the illusionist manage to dodge. They quickly break her head off with a pick they had for whatever reason. Druid "Hey, we can break her head off with that pick you found!" DM (me) "What? What pick? None of you guys use a pick." Illusionist "Yeah! We found one in the mines, remember? Ok, I start chipping her head off!" DM "What the...? Why did you take that random, non magical pick?" Illusionist "Well, it came in handy, didn't it?" Oh well, so they mine her head off. I didn't know what to think. The First can't hear, being behind his door. Maybe I played him a little too cocky. The party is still scarred. They were low on spells before this, and with a party consisting of a cleric, druid, sorcerer, and illusionist... being low on spells means you are about to die. They creep up the stairs to try and grab the clerics body so they can have his stuff when he's resurrected. One of them stumbles on something and makes quite a bit of noise (negative move silently check) so the First comes out to see what's going on. Lots of his short duration spells have worn off... like spell resistance. Both sides roll initiative. The sorcerer wins and enervates the first badly (4). The First loses almost all his cool spells and gets a negative to saves. The party fought him back into his room, then he was hit by another enervation (3) next round, and another after, and he just had nothing. He tried to attack them through the forbiddance spell in the Third's room, but it just wasn't enough. He really didn't get one good attack off after that he was hit by the first enervation. It pwned him. I felt bad... cause the cleric only died cause he was being dumb (the illusionist's retreat plan was to cover with a wall of force) and the Third died as soon as the Trio (drd, sor, ilu) saw the whites of her eyes. The First didn't last much longer against those three either. I felt ok about it since Hedrack and Thrommel were so awesome IMC. Maybe you'll feel better about Thrommel and Hedrack getting wiped up if The First and Third get active and really plague the group to compensate? Not TPK... just the Third could threaten to attack Hommlet (by using the tourbillion) if the party attacks the Inner Fane... then when they do, they find Hommlet was attacked by a greater air elemental. Get the First to fight the party in the top of the Black Spike... that will lay out some interesting dangers for a more unique combat. And the Third would get away to the ToEE or something. Well, I'm sure you could think of a ton. Just remember, sometimes players get lucky and the fight will be quick and painless... sometimes you'll get lucky and the fight will be awesome, memorable and epic. You just gotta take the chances as they come to you. Hedrack isn't supposed to be the main villain that he turned out to be for me anyways. Imix and the First are. So make those fights count.
Siobharek Cherub (11/10/03 12:22 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Hedrack and Thrommel --- died too easy! What did I do wr In a toe-to-toe fight, Thrommel isn't that much of a threat - he can't dominate everyone, and he can be hit. As to Hedrack: Doesn't foirbiddance keep out ethereal entry? Siobharek ...it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
madfox Cherub (11/10/03 1:12 am) Reply	Re: Hedrack and Thrommel --- died too easy! What did I do wr Makes you wonder whether negative levels from the enervation spell stack with each other. They are from the same source afterall... I know that at the very least I house ruled it this way in my campaign, so the players never cast the spell more then once at an opponent. In any event, in the end a battle can fall or rise depending on the rolls of the dice and the tactics of both players and DM. I have seen supposedly easy fights turn into ugly affairs and difficult ones into very easy ones. One thing, high level casters do not need weapons. They have their spells and risking AoO to get a magical item seems like a stupid idea. Secondly, most high level spellcasters in my campaigns have a quick get-away spell prepared. If they are surprised by an enemy when all alone with no cannon-fodder, they tend to flee immidiately.
Infiniti2000 Cherub (11/10/03 8:40 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Hedrack and Thrommel --- died too easy! What did I do wr By the rules, they stack. Your suggestion would help curb what I feel is an overpowered spell, however. I'd be happier if enervation were 1d2 levels. Lunus, thanks for the report.
Cordo Crowfoot Cherub (11/10/03 8:59 am) Reply	Re: Hedrack and Thrommel --- died too easy! What did I do wr Straight up as soon as the party entered his room, if he was unprepared he should have Word of Recalled away, not run for his tentacle rod. Even if grappled he can WoR (albeit with a difficult concentration check).
JoeSchmoe Memunite (11/10/03 10:16 am) Reply	Re: Hedrack and Thrommel --- died too easy! What did I do wr >>>>>>>>> As to Hedrack: Doesn't foirbiddance keep out ethereal entry? I never play magic users so I don't know the spells as well as I should, not to mention the higher levels spells. When the cleric went in to retrieve the dead fighter's stuff I didn't know about the forbiddance effect on ethereals, so when the party appeared in his room I had the forbiddance take effect when they were material. It had its effect in the end, though. And yeah he should have done WoR but after sleeping on it I think he still had his effect - he did kill one of the party members before and they feel they knocked off one of the truly bad dudes and feel good about themselves. Actually, they found area 23 and seem to think that they're near the end! I'll have to try to set up something really big for next week with the remaining forces in the OF, but because of my time constraint we'll have to run through it quicker than is ideal.
deafdungeonmasterRIT Cherub (11/10/03 12:58 pm) Reply	Piece of Advice.. If Hedrack are giving party such a hard times to force them to retreat or close to TPK, give him experience points! Make sure he gain a level.. didn't I recall a quote once said "Orc gains level, too?!?!" Who own that quote?
Lunus Quelnegarde Memunite (11/10/03 5:13 pm) Reply	Re: Piece of Advice.. Yeah, deafdungoenmaster, you are completely right! Hedrack did gain a level IMC. It was awesome when the party realized that he had "Wait, wasn't 7th level his best spells? He can't cast that! AIEE!" Madfox, I think your suggestion is very formidable for a solution. It still means it is a scary spell (it always sucks getting 1-4 negative levels, no save), but not so deadly. I was surprised as anything to find out enervation had not been changed in 3.5. It's a very easy way to take out any spell caster. Especially as soon as you get it. It also kills enemy monsters saving throws. Infiniti2000... I wish I could get up the initiative to write out my campaign log... I feel it's quite good and quite humorous at times... but blurbs like this may be all anyone gets out me for a bit yet EDIT: I have no clue where %%WORD%% came from, but it was supposed to say the above. Maybe your name is verboten, Infiniti... Edited by: Lunus Quelnegarde at: 11/11/03 11:00 am
deafdungeonmasterRIT Cherub (11/10/03 6:57 pm) Reply	and.... if Hedrack gains a level or two.. he will be this much closer to be fourth wheel of the "Triad" ;-)
Killiak Dynama (11/11/03 12:01 pm) Reply	Re: and.... Or take a place in the Triad They are INSANE you know! Killing off a strong force on your team so you can be more important is quite insane at that!
deafdungeonmasterRIT Cherub (11/11/03 4:42 pm) Reply	hmm.. I don't think Triad want a competition. Kill off Hedrack while they are still strong... perhaps to turn him into a skum.. or sic Thrommel at him... at the same times... who CAN replace Hedrack?? Varachan??? ;-)
Killiak Dynama (11/11/03 4:53 pm) Reply	Re: hmm.. Hrrrmmm. Maybe they make Hedrack a Vampire too and steal his coffin chuckle chuckle That oughta be good
deafdungeonmasterRIT Cherub (11/12/03 7:35 pm) Reply	hmm Hedrack a vampire? Now that is overkill ;-) He can easily crush the Triad given the fact that he get undead HD and regeneration rates. It is no lose situation! All he need to do is take a bite out of the First. Hedrack becomes the First. Hedrack, of course, will retains his name by "HEdrack the First" heh!
Infiniti2000 Cherub (11/13/03 8:44 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: hmm You don't throw vampires at high level clerics, it just doesn't work. A vampire Hedrack would be worse off against the First than not being a vampire.
deafdungeonmasterRIT Cherub (11/13/03 12:12 pm) Reply	hmm why is that? Explains this please! Will revanant or ghast Hedrack will be more appropicate? Lemme look at the books, so I can come up with more ideas!
Siobharek Cherub (11/13/03 12:49 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: hmm Personally I think that any undead is just one mediocre die roll away from being toast against a high-level cleric. Vamp.: "Beware, for your doom is at hand!" Cleric: "Oh yeah? Wanna discuss that with Mr. Holy Symbol here?" Vamp.: "Aieee!" Siobharek ...it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
Infiniti2000 Cherub (11/13/03 1:28 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: hmm Thrommel is only 12HD. With +4 turn resistance, he is treated as 16HD. The party would have a tough time turning him, needing to be 12th level or have some special feats. Hedrack, however, should be able to turn Thrommel with a pretty good chance. He would certainly be able to turn him before Thrommel was able to kill him. Add that to Hedrack's 7th level spells and Thrommel really doesn't stand a chance. Sure, Thrommel is CR14 (same as Hedrack), but you have to think about the overall tactics and abilties of a creature when comparing them head-to-head. Yes, Thrommel might be able to take out Hedrack on an exceptionally lucky day, but chance are heavily in Hedrack's favor. The First is that much stronger, with 8th level spells. If Hedrack were a vampire, he would be considered as 18HD with the +4 turn resistance. The First can still rebuke him on a fair chance (I'm sure someone would be happy to work out the exact numbers). With certain feats, magical items, or spells, it could be even easier. Basically, the point is that clerics are built to take on undead. Good or evil clerics, it doesn't matter, it's only a difference between turning and rebuking.
Grushnak23 Mortal (11/13/03 2:23 pm) Reply	Bolstering Something that shouldn't be forgotten with Undead Clerics is their ability to bolster themselves. This can significantly improve their chances of not being turned. Thrommel is probably not powerful enough to help himself much, but if Hedrack were undead it would be a different matter.
deafdungeonmasterRIT Cherub (11/13/03 2:43 pm) Reply	but.. will Vampire Hedrack be tougher against PC party???
arcane12 Memunite (11/13/03 2:49 pm) Reply	Re: Bolstering hate to participate is a thread hijack (yeah right) but what happens with a Greater turning + Vampire? Tecnhically a vampire can ONLY be killed in his coffin by very specific means - anything that reduces him to negative HP makes him gaseous. However greater turning (and disintergrate, etc) 'destroys' him. Now I have never had to make this call in my game yet (and never managed to greater turn a vamp - my cleric of pelor rolled a 1 three times on each attempt - three different encounters, same Vamp!) but it kinda keeps me up at night...