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Author
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Comment
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Grushnak23
Mortal
(11/13/03 11:12 pm)
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Wat's up with that?
So the intrepid party entered the Waterside Hostel tonight, and got attacked by Wat. The first character made their save against the death attack, and then Wat disappeared on the next action. The party searched around trying to figure out what was going on, and three rounds later Wat struck again. They managed to kill him before he could disappear a second time. It scared them quite a bit, and was a lot of fun.
But here is the question:
How can Wat get a sneak attack that second time around? It seemed pretty clear that was his whole strategy, but the characters are no longer flat footed. So they are not susceptable to sneak attacks and therefore not susceptable to death attacks. I ruled on the spot that his manifesting from the ether and striking made them flat footed, but this doesn't seem to follow the rules. What do you all think? This is 3.5 by the way.
On a side note the night's session ended with them opening the door to the room with the Allip. Three of the four party members failed their saves. The cleric is the only one not hypnotized. So that should make things interesting.
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Killiak 
Dynama
(11/14/03 1:37 am)
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Re: Wat's up with that?
According to the book, Wat studies his opponent while he himself has gone ethereal, thus being able to do a Death Attack every 3 rounds.
HOWEVER, this is an error in the book. U cannot STUDY an opponent while you are ethereal, thus making it only possible for him to hide => study => go ethereal => move up => Death attack => battle
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JRedGiant
Memunite
(11/14/03 5:18 am)
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Studying
As I recall, this was the subject of much debate last time around. When I asked about it we were 3.0 exclusively and no one could come up with a page reference stating that you couldn't study while ethereal. So ultimately it was up to the individual DM. I don't play 3.5, so there may be rules in there that clarifies the matter.
In any event, Wat's horrific gaze is still far more dangerous than his death attack. The ability score loss between him and the aalip made Lareth, combined with evil tactics, a VERY tough fight IMC
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Killiak
Dynama
(11/14/03 5:40 am)
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Re: Studying
Wat+Allip+Lareth+Situation= Big EL
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Grushnak23
Mortal
(11/14/03 6:50 am)
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Problems with Encounter
Yeah there seems to be several problems with Wat’s attack strategy. Once the battle has started, the conditions no longer exist for Wat to make a sneak/death attack. He must manifest before attacking, which requires a standard action. Even if the party was flat footed, he couldn’t attack until the round after he manifests. So they would no longer be flat footed. And then what you all pointed out about whether or not he could study a potential victim for three rounds, while he is ethereal.
Having said that, I ran the combat as intended. I didn’t realize that using the manifest ability required a standard action, and I ruled on the spot that if he appeared out of nowhere and attacked then the person was flat footed.
The party loved the battle though. They knew the difficulty was going to ramp up after the moathouse, but I don’t think they figured they would be encountering a ghost with a 5th level party. Ghosts are scary!
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 Infiniti2000
Cherub
(11/14/03 9:09 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Problems with Encounter
That's true. By default Su abilities are standard actions, so manifestation is a standard action. Therefore, to use it Wat would attack, then disappear and not manifest again until the party is less prepared (i.e. not in combat rounds anymore). Of course, that particular strategy does not make for a fun game as the party cannot ready actions. So, IMO I think it is a perfectly acceptable houserule to make a ghost's manifestation a move action.
In any case, you sneak attack (death attack) whenever the victim would be denied her Dex bonus. Flat-footed is only one situation. If you attack when the victim is unaware of you (i.e. invisible, such as on the ethereal plane), that also works. Although there's no such thing as facing, if Wat appears 'behind' someone and attacks, I still think that qualifies as behing 'invisible', though I think a spot check (DC 20) would negate it.
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arcane12
Memunite
(11/16/03 1:02 pm)
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Re: Problems with Encounter
or you could chnage his tactics somewhat - he gets three rounds between study and when to make attack. He could study, and then do this:
1st round: Move out of line of sight of party and manifest.
2nd & 3rd round : Move into position (silently, hidden) and attack target.
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Taxman66
Kalkydrite
(11/17/03 10:26 am)
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Re: Problems with Encounter
Being incoporial he could manifest 'hidden' inside (or mostly inside) of furniture. That should give him a big bonus to his hide roll.
I'd give the party spot chances vs. his hide for the round he needs to manifest.
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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setanta14
Memunite
(11/18/03 1:18 pm)
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Re: Problems with Encounter
I ruled it that because Wat was fighting with a Ghost Touch longsword, he didn't need to manifest to attack targets on the prime.
If he was using a natural attack (unarmed for example), or some other weapon that was with his body when he was killed (like a dagger or some such) he would have to manifest to attack with them.
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Roland the red
Memunite
(11/20/03 7:24 am)
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Re: Problems with Encounter
Manifest-move-attack?
Why move after manifest? He would move while ethereal, he CAN pinpoint characters while ethereal, move to a character, THEN manifest and attack as a standard action. The PC's react till its his turn, whereby he goes ethereal again. repeat.
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Grushnak23
Memunite
(11/20/03 8:30 am)
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Re: Problems with Encounter
But his manifest ability is a standard action, so he cannot manifest and attack in the same round. Most of his power comes from the Sneak Attack/Death Attack, and the PCs would not be flanked or flat footed. If he couldn't attack until the round after manifesting, then it wouldn't be much of a surprise either.
I do like the "manifest in a hidden area idea", because he would then be attacking by surprise. This should meet the prerequisites for a sneak/death attack.
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msherman
Kalkydrite
(11/20/03 9:41 am)
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Re: Problems with Encounter
My understanding is that the whole point of the Ghost Touch sword is that he doesn't need to manifest to use it. Otherwise, what benefit does it give him?
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Grushnak23
Memunite
(11/20/03 10:38 am)
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Re: Problems with Encounter
The Ghost Touch ability on a weapon allows an incorporeal creature to attack a coporeal and vice versa.
An unmanifested ghost is ethereal, not incorporeal. When he manifests, he is now visible and incorporeal on the material plane and corporeal on the ethereal plane. While he is ethereal, he cannot affect or be affected by anyone on the material plane except for a few force related effects.
I believe that all the ghost's abilities require him to be manifested on the material plane.
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