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(11/23/03 10:05 am)
Okay, so I decided to use the lost sword of Prince Thrommel in my game. The white dragon had it and provided it to the heroes as an award for helping it defeat and kill Vranthis, something the party wanted to do anyway. I made the item superpowerful, of course, but somewhat limited in that there are no LG paladins in the party, and that once they meet Thrommel himself, it would work itself out of the campaign.

And then, when the group teleports back to Khorasan (aka Verbobonc IMC, where Prince Thrommel is from actually), Kale (a NG fighter/ranger) unexpectedly decides to return it to the royal family. Wtf? The sword specifically requested not to be returned, thinking that it would be placed on a shelf somewhere, but Kale felt it the right thing to do. I've rewarded the party in game (though only a limited amount), but I was thinking an additional award should go to Kale.

Do you have any suggestions? Is an extra XP award in order? Having died a few times, he is way behind everyone else. Maybe next time the group returns, he will be given a minor barony. Atm, they are only 10th level, and Kale is 9th (easily 7000XP behind the next party member).

(11/23/03 11:33 am)
Re: Fragarach
Hmm, the big problem is because he is so far behind any reward big enough to help him out _could_ be seen as unfair as it would have to be a whopping big one. On the upside if you are using 3.5 XP rules he should start catching up.

Notes on Fragarach: (BTW obviously you can run it anyway you want in your own game but just in case I thought I would share ;) )
Fragarach actually only uncovers it's full potential in the hands of a CG weilder. In theory Thrommel may not have know it's full value (being a LG Paladin), and only thought it was a 'pretty cool' Bastard sword. He could have kept it for sentimental reasons. (If you treat it as an artifact it may only have shown up as a minor or moderate weapon revealing only limited powers in an identify. Legend lore is the only way to get some idea of what an artifact can really do.)
As far as I know Fragarach wasn't an intelligent weapon.

As an interesting aside, I could post the 'stats' given to Fragarach in the ToEE computer game. Not exactly 'offical' but an interesting take non the less. :)

(11/23/03 3:28 pm)
Re: Fragarach
As you know, I've introduced Fragarach in a similar way, and it's currently being carried around by a CG party member wrapped in burlap strapped to his back. (IMC it's a lawful sword, not a chaotic one, so he can use it, although he'll take a negative level when he does.) I've had a couple NPCs strongly recommend to him that he return it to the royal family in Furyondy, and the party claims that they intend to do so Real Soon Now. If they do return it, I'll reward them politically (barony, etc), but I'll also make it possible (though not trivial, of course!) for them to get the sword back if they decide they want to use it to try to bring Thrommel back to the side of good.

(11/24/03 6:54 pm)
If I remember correctly, Fragarach was always supposed to be Lawful Good. I recall reading somewhere that the statement that it was Chaotic Good in the original Temple of Elemental Evil was an error.

(11/24/03 9:02 pm)
Re: Fragarach
I was going to post the same. I believe it's in an interview with EGG himself in one of the Oreth Journals. I don't quite have the time to look it up right now, but that might help. Even so, the CG nature seems to have permeated history. IIRC, the detailed description of Verbobonc in OJ mentioned that the sword was kept by the Church of Trithereon, who is CG. I don't know whether that's 'canon' or a detail the author(s) of that article put in.

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(11/24/03 9:25 pm)
Unearthed Arcana
IIRC, In UA the swords were listed as being 'Broadswords of Final word'; Fragarach was 'The Answerer', a CG Broadsword. However there was one for each Alignment (of lesser power to). I'll check when I get home from work...

I'd be interested in seeing the CRPG stat's as well.

I like the idea of it being Neutral Good in alignment, that way any good could use it.

(11/25/03 8:22 am)
Well, seeing as how Thrommel was wielding a greatsword, I made Fragarach a greatsword, too. It is a +3 lawful holy greatsword, intelligent, that speaks out loud or telepathically. It also detects evil and chaos at will and sheds light. The final bit is that it 'pops' into the wielders hand, basically providing quick draw for free (though not quick sheathe). However, it likes to be used in combat so it will frequently jump into the wielder's hand, knocking out other weapons. It's not very smart, so it will not really know the difference between a rust monster or not, though it will be largely immune to such things, being a very powerful item. Anyway, it's gone now, but that's what I had planned. :)

(11/25/03 8:28 am)
Re: Fragarach
Here is a link to a similar discussion on the WOTC Greyhawk board.

See Erik Mona's comment about a thrid of the way down. We will soon see Fragarach in print!

(11/25/03 1:59 pm)
Re: Fragarach
This is a thread referred to in Astaroth's link:


Greyhawk: The Temple of Elemental Evil Forum Highlights
Posted Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 20:10 CET by Gopher

Here are today's Greyhawk: The Temple of Elemental Evil forum highlights. Please take into account that these are only single parts of various threads and should not be taken out of context. Bear in mind also that the posts presented here are copied as-is, and that any bad spelling and grammar does not get corrected on our end.

Tim Cain, Project Leader

Gary Gygax on Prince Thrommel And Fragarach:

Here is my question to Gary Gygax on the matter of Prince Thrommel and his sword Fragarach.

I wrote:
Prince Thrommel is in stasis in room 334. He is listed as a Paladin Lord, but no alignment, class or level information is given. His sword Fragarach is listed as Chaotic Good, and Lawful Goods take damage and pass out if they try to wield it. Does this mean Prince Thrommel is Chaotic Good as well, making Paladin Lord just a title? Or is Fragarach's description in error?

To which Mr. Gygax replied:
Heh. I was planning a CG Paladin, one who didn't fit the mold. Because of circumstances I never got around to that, so the easiest and likely more interesting way of managing the dichotomy is to have the name "Paladin" as a title. Celtic myth-inspired swords just can't be of LG alignment, eh?

Steve Moret, Lead Programmer

Steve's take on it:

My take on it, (keep in mind this isn't necessarily the Tim, or the Gygax, or the official, or the module way of looking at it) and I'm a neutral party here...

Prince Thrommel was a Paladin Lord... not a Paladin. Fragarach is clearly chaotic, look at what it does! There is no lawfulness in that at all. He may have led paladins, but he himself needent obay their rules as strictly.

But of course thats what I saw in my cheerios. But I add sugar...

With apologies to our resident paladins, clearly EGG is not convinced LG is the only way...

Fragarach was the sword of Manannan mac Lir in Celtic myth, which is why EGG's reference above.

I personally would make Fragarach LG. YMMV.

- Bluesman

(11/25/03 3:19 pm)
Re: Fragarach
I tend to fall into the "should have been Lawful Good" bunch, myself. As such, here's what I originally wrote (and is in the Best of the Boards) on the subject:



In the hands of a non-LG wielder:
Bastard Sword +1

In the hands of a LG wielder:
Bastard Sword +4
Keen (improved threat range)
Holy and Lawful (Seems to despise both Chaos and Evil)

Grants the feat Karmic Strike (OA) to it's wielder, without the reduction of AC. Grants a +10 Insight bonus to hit on any such Karmic Strike. Will respond to attacks even when the wielder is flat-footed (so long as Fragarach is drawn at the time).

Karmic Strike: Prereq.: Dodge, Dex 13+. Declare on your initiative if you are using it. It applies until your next initiative. You suffer a -4 penalty to AC, but may make an Attack of Opportunity against everyone who attacks you. This AoO is considered absolutely simultaneous to the attacker's strike.

By itself, it doesn't grant any extra AoOs...which is why it combines nicely with Combat Reflexes. Basically, the penalty to AC grants you the ability to have "attack you" be an AoO triggering action.

Grants the feat Improved Combat Reflexes (Rumors suggest that there will be an Epic feat that allows unlimited AoOs...this is just a guess at that).

Imposes a -4 penalty to Initiative when it is wielded, and if drawn during combat, will drop the initiative of it's bearer by 4 at that time.

Yes, this is a grossly powerful weapon. Reading over the description of it's nature and powers, it's of Artifact, or at least Epic, grade. I would NOT recommend placing it in RttToEE, but instead some hint of where it might be found.

"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?"

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