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msherman
Ophanite
(12/2/03 8:53 am)
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Rewarding the party for the Dwarven temple
In my game, the party just discovered the Dwarven temple, and handed it over to Rerrid without any looting. So far, I've rewarded them with a small story XP award, and one of the 3000gp chests from the treasury; I'd like to give them something else, a real safe haven in the area.

The party is currently out of town for about ~3 days; on their return, they'll discover that the dwarves have been busy mining out a new room in the temple complex, in the area SW of room 68, adjacent to the exterior edge of the CRM. There's a partially complete stone altar, a skylight which lets the noon sun bathe the room, and dwarven artists are hard at work putting up a mosaic on the back wall depicting Moradin and Pelor (and the other allied gods in the background) together casting Tharizdun into his eternal prison.

Rerrid will provide a quantity of oils, herbs and insense, so that the party's cleric of Pelor can Hallow the room as a shrine to Pelor. What spell do you think he should recommend fo rthe attached spell?

One possibility is Dimensional Anchor, _if_ I understand it correctly. Would Dimensional Anchor prevent evil people/monsters from entering the hallowed area via extra-dimensional travel? As written, DA is a ray spell, so another interpretation might be that it only keeps people _in_ the area, not out. That wouldn't be particularly useful.

A better idea might be Dispel Magic; one possible interpretation there could be that the DM would work almost as well as Dimensional Anchor, since it would act as an automatic counterspell to any extradimensional travel into the shrine, as well as protecting against things like Hedrack's scrying. Am I misinterpreting how DM would work with the hallow?

msherman
Ophanite
(12/3/03 6:53 am)
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Re: Rewarding the party for the Dwarven temple
No-one has any suggestions how to rule on Dimensional Anchor or Dispel Magic tied to a Hallow? I'll try posting a genericized version of this on the Magic board.

Thrommel
Runechild (mod)
Council of Magisters

(12/3/03 7:43 am)
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Re: Rewarding the party for the Dwarven temple
Quote:
Would Dimensional Anchor prevent evil people/monsters from entering the hallowed area via extra-dimensional travel?
This is the interpretation I would go with.

Note that, IMO, an ethereal creature can pass through the area but cannot shift to the prime within the hallowed area.

This is a pretty powerful base of operations. It's going to be hard for the assassins to try to tackle them in there. You'll probably have to do some hit-and-run tactics.

After one spectacularly failed assassination attempt in the Dwarven Temple, of course.

-Thrommel, who, it should be noted, does have a thirst for dwarf blood.

arcane12
Memunite
(12/3/03 11:44 am)
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Re: Rewarding the party for the Dwarven temple
I would have to disagree sorry. There is nothing stoppping you as a DM to rule that what Thrommel offered as a possibility, but this would be changing the spells and the way magic affect things. Personally I think the way suggested would be cool, but would definately be stretching the rules.

Here's my take on this:

The most important factor to remember is that an etheral creature is on a different plane. There is a very specific list of spells that affect etheral creatures when cast on (or from) the material.

If it is possible to use Dimensional Anchor like this then on of these two must be a yes:

1)Can dimensional anchor be cast on an etheral target (one spotted with a see invis?

2)Can the spells that are tied to Hallow affect etheral creatures? (even ones that normally cannot be used to target said creatures, like cause fear?)

By this reasoning I would personally disallow that. Of course there is ways to secure a place dimensionally, but that takes extra work.

Etheralness is quite a high level spell, and so is teleport, and other planar travel effects. Having them vetoed by such a spell would diminish their usefulness. And why would the Doomdreamers have gone to the effort they did with the black spike if they could have just Unhallowed the place?

msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/16/03 7:46 pm)
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Please make an Appraise check
I'm doing a treasure audit on my party, so that I can figure out how generous the King of Furyondy should be when they deliver Fragarach to him.

How much do you think this base of operations is worth to the party? It's at least 4000gp for the Hallow itself, but the actual shrine room in the dwarven temple must have some additional cash value, as well, I'd think.

If the dimensions matter, the shrine itself is a 40'x50' room. There's an 80' long 20' wide hallway leading into it, with a 20' square back room with beds and such. The party has also been talking about building another small side chamber (perhaps 10' square) for the wizard to use as an alchemy lab.

Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(12/16/03 8:28 pm)
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ezSupporter
Re: Please make an Appraise check
That's really hard to say. Quite honestly, I don't think I would add it in there. The shrine is payback for the dwarven temple being recovered, right?

IMC, the emperor (not Greyhawk) gave them apartments at the castle, and free use of the labs there and the teleport room. The party is, after all, very powerful. He gave them some minor trinkets (potions mostly), but is otherwise saving everything for the impending war on a nearby nation (so as to limit the help the party receives in their fight against a supposed greater evil). He plans to award them baronies, perhaps, but only when he has less pressing issues to deal with. That way, I can put off the actual awards and not unduly unbalance things. Also, it will allow me to not award them twice in case Thrommel is also returned.

You cannot really put a price on an artifact, though, so maybe just the eternal gratitude of the crown (i.e. get out of jail free card) would suffice, merely thanking them for doing what any good subject of the crown would do. Maybe give them each a refuge stick keyed to the castle?

msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/16/03 8:58 pm)
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Re: Please make an Appraise check
Fact is, I think they're low on treasure -- the past few sessions have been dominated by treasureless enemies. I just got the audit email back from one of the players, and he's at 47275gp, compared to the ~77000gp he should have halfway between 11th and 12th. So I do think I should give them something. But I don't want to over-compensate, and the shrine is definitely worth something, so I'd like to account for it somehow to figure out how low they really are.

Political gifts from the King of Furyondy aren't actually terribly valuable to this party, since they don't actually adventure in Furyondy; though I suppose that the Viscount of Verbobonc does owe fealty to the King of Furyondy, so perhaps knighting the character who returns the sword might actually be of some value to them in Verbobonc. I think I'd like to throw in some gold as well, and one fancy trinket each, though.

Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(12/17/03 2:30 am)
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Re: Please make an Appraise check
Gut feeling... A Forbiddance effect (PH pg. 233) is about 3,000gp minimum. Since the effect is similar that is probably a good pricing to go with.

"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station

Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(12/17/03 5:06 am)
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ezSupporter
Re: Please make an Appraise check
"I think they're low on treasure"

Well, if they're that low and you think it could lead to disastrous consequences, by all means give them some stuff. Potions of healing and wands of cure light wounds do not unbalance the campaign, almost no matter how much you give them, so a box of 50 potions and a couple full wands would be a great start. Perhaps a bag of holding (if they don't have one) so that they can carry the loot they find back home. I assume they have not been taking advantage of said loot? Perhaps the King can offer the services of his wizard to add a +1 bonus to a weapon (up to, say +3) or armor (up to, say +4). Let the party choose the type though, like flaming, etc.

msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/17/03 8:12 am)
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Re: Please make an Appraise check
I think I've found what I'm looking for in table 3-27 of the DMG (building prices). It says that a "one to three room house" is worth 1000gp. It's not the same thing, but owning a house in an urban campaign is probably analagous in value to owning a protected shrine in the CRM for this campaign. So I'm going to value the shrine at a total of 5000gp (1000gp for the structure, +4000gp for the Hallow+Dispel).

Narben
Ebon Hand Cultist
(12/19/03 9:44 am)
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ezSupporter

Re: Please make an Appraise check
I've always felt it was an error when they listed Dimensional Anchor as a possible Hallow effect. Dimensional Lock makes much more sense.

msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/19/03 10:34 am)
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Re: Please make an Appraise check
You know, before reading your post, I wasn't even familiar with Dimensional Lock, having never played in a game that got up to 8th level spells. now that I've read it, I'm much more confident that Dimensional Anchor should not prevent extra-dimensional travel into the hallowed area, but rather only out of it, since preventing travel in would usurp the higher level Dimensional Lock effect. Permanent Dimensional Anchor still has some uses, though, it's just more specialized, like if you're constructing a hallowed prison.

Dimensional Lock would be more useful for a hallow effect, but it's too high level; the highest level spell in the hallow list is 4th, which is the same level as hallow itself. Perhaps an 8th or 9th level Greater Hallow which allowed higher level spells to be made permanent would be a reasonable house rule, though.

Narben
Ebon Hand Cultist
(12/20/03 3:19 pm)
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ezSupporter

Re: Please make an Appraise check
Depends on how you want to run it. There's nothing in the Hallow description that says it's limited to 4th level spells. Likewise the list of spells given is worded as "Spell effects that may be tied to a hallow site include aid, bless, etc"
To me the include indicates it's not a definitive list, otherwise it should have been written as "Spell effects that may be tied to a hallow site are aid, bless, etc"
The only problem with a higher level spell is that it costs more to add it based on the 1000gp/level cost

Mr Kaze
Ebon Hand Cultist
(12/29/03 5:50 pm)
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Re: Please make an Appraise check
1) Offhand, I would have the Dwarves try to put a Forbiddance effect, as noted earlier on the entire area -- blocks planar shifting and damages any uninviteds trying to just walk in. Then you can Hallow the area and tie something like an Invisibility Purge to it. If it's possible, anyway. (If not, well, knowing me, I'd bend the rules to make it possible on the expectation that having such a safehouse is good for both the players and the plot.) Not very original, but it seems like a very nice setup for foiling assassins.

2) The one thing I would bring your attention to before you bemoan too loudly the fact that your PCs are under-looted at this point in the adventure -- The Third (edit: actually, it's the Second who is encountered third; my bad) has a $200K piece of treasure. While it doesn't make your/their current situation any better, it does give you something to consider before heaping sizeable rewards on them. (Personally, I'm planning to avoid handing out $200K bits of treasure by rewriting the entire endgame sequence.)

::Kaze (considers it a significant problem when it's economically viable for a player to say "don't bother raising that character, I'll just go rebuild it with the gear befitting his/her level...")

Edited by: Mr Kaze at: 12/29/03 8:24 pm
msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/29/03 8:13 pm)
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Re: Please make an Appraise check
What does the Third have that's worth that much?

Mr Kaze
Ebon Hand Cultist
(12/29/03 8:17 pm)
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Re: Please make an Appraise check
Ring of Fire Elemental Controlling. (My bad, that's The Second who's encountered third...)

msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/29/03 9:57 pm)
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Re: Please make an Appraise check
Well, that hardly matters; by the time the party's divvying up the Second's treasure, the module, and very likely my campaign, is within one session of ending.

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