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Cordo Crowfoot
Cherub
(12/9/03 11:19 pm)
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Contacting Varachan
For some reason it just strikes me as WRONG to think about the players walking into Varachan's room, him calmly asking them to pull up a chair, and filling them in on everything. If the players are cutting a swathe of death through the Outer Fane, and it clearly stops in or near his room--and potentially even worse he comes out ok when it is clear they were there--it's going to look MIGHTY suspicious. "Oh I guess they forgot to make sure I was dead." doesn't seem like it would cut it.
Not to mention, as far as Varachan knows, Hedrack could be scrying on the group as they speak or moving towards the area they were spotted in. Seems natural Hedrack would want to check in on him if the latter is the case.
So it seems to me he would be in quite a pickle were the PCs to break into his room unannounced.
(Assuing he knows the PCs have scrying ability as they do IMC) It seems to me the smart thing for him to do would be to contact the PCs as soon as they make their first foray against the Outer Fane telling them to "Scry Varachan tomorrow at Sunset" (at some time he could be fairly sure he or the PCs wasn't being observed by Hedrack or anyone else) and provide a personal belonging. He would Scry them at the same time to create a two way communication channel.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
 Siobharek 
Cherub
(12/10/03 3:05 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Contacting Varachan
I had Varachan contact the group using a summoned imp. The imp carried a smal chest with some useful items and a letter. At the end of the letter, it said: "Kill this creature, or I will be dead" I think it was Andorax' idea originally.
After that, I had Varachan volunteer to seek out the party with some ogres. When they encountered the PCs, he purposely miscast a spell (silence, I think), and I allowed a spellcraft check from the cleric to determine that it was bogus, and then he fell down the first time he was hit.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Infiniti2000
Cherub
(12/10/03 8:13 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Contacting Varachan
"So it seems to me he would be in quite a pickle were the PCs to break into his room unannounced."
I agree. In that case, he would need to join the PC's for his own protection, his gig being up. Alternatively, if he sees them coming, he could flee, or ask them to beat him up somewhat, give them all kinds of information, fleeing before them and setting the bad guys on them one at a time (so to speak), spacing them out to give the party maximum effectiveness.
The scrying tactic you illustrate is flawed (in 3.5) because multiple unsuccessful scries will only cause the party to be paranoid and that is likely to fail.
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arcane12
Memunite
(12/10/03 11:45 am)
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Re: Contacting Varachan
There is also a second rather large issue with the scrying : Lack of the focus.
Varachan has a crystal ball and Hedrack may not know about it as it could be a personal possession the Varachan hides knowledge of. Who wouldn't want an ace in the hole in an evil organisation? Because of this Varachan has a easy way to keep in contact with the party, however Hedrack has no such resource, and if he did do you not think it would be mentioned as scrying has obviously been thought of?
I think Hedrack would be too caught up in his own power to bother keeping close tabs on the group. Worse comes to worse he can deal with them himself, as he did not get to where he is by being a wuss.
As I have mentioned before, there is a place or two in the outer fane that could be used as a scrying focus, but they are not located in the comfort of Hedracks room so he may not be willing to spend much time using them. Also he would have no idea when the party will attack the fanes so the chances he has memorised a scry to spy on the intruders rather than seeing to the defense of his home is slim.
---edit---
Had a thought: Hedrack is too important to waste time scrying intruders, so he would delegate right? If he is aware that Varachan has a crystal ball, Varachan would be the perfect choice to have this slightly menial task. And would Varachan refuse? I think not 
Edited by: arcane12 at: 12/10/03 11:47 am
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Cordo Crowfoot
Cherub
(12/10/03 6:23 pm)
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Re: Contacting Varachan
I don't think assuming Hedrack has a scry focus not mentioned in his equipment is too much of a stretch at all. He does have greater scrying memorized after all.
IMC, exactly as you suggest arcane12 Varachan has been "delegated" the work of scrying on the intruders. Which is the perfect position for him. But like most evil bosses, especially one who might be wary of an up and coming rival climbing the ladder quickly (his interested piqued by the fact that Varachan is "failing") Hedrack wouldn't be above checking up on them and/or Varachan at any time. All it takes is a bit of bad luck in that regard and Varachan will lose his life, so it would be a definite gamble. That doesn't mean Hedrack *will* do it but if I were in Varachan's postion with his resources I would most likely do something about it before I got into an untenable position with the party breaking into his room unannounced.
That's a good point on the potential for failing I2K, but that could be rectified by being ready to try multiple times. Varachan could just keep the scrying channel open, and it is unlikely he will fail with multiple PC targets (for one of which, IMC, Varachan has a belonging).
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smetzger
Tolling Bell Cultist
(12/11/03 8:15 am)
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Re: Contacting Varachan
Quote:
Varachan could just keep the scrying channel open, and it is unlikely he will fail with multiple PC targets (for one of which, IMC, Varachan has a belonging).
Yeah, thats the definant advantage of having a crystal ball. You can just keep trying indefinantly untill your subject rolls a 1. Of course your subject will most likely be aware of the scry. I actually employed this IMC. Had the players on edge when I had the first one make a save and he made it and then I said "don't bother rolling, you eventually fail"
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Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(12/11/03 9:49 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Contacting Varachan
Perhaps, just remember that each attempt with the crystal ball takes 1 hour, as per the scry spell. Personally, I think scrying is way too difficult and unreliable a means of communication. It's possible, yes, but not a great option. It may, however, be the best option.
Side issue, when people have Varachan send a quasit or imp, where do such creatures come from? Without spells, he cannot summon/call them and there is only one quasit that I remember, Insentorix the advanced quasit.
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msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/11/03 10:18 am)
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Re: Contacting Varachan
I had him send 2 quasits, which I placed in the OF under Insentorix' command. When he sent the 2nd, he noted that he couldn't send any more, because he'd essentially run out; he certainly couldn't send Insentorix himself, who has specific orders from Hedrack and would be missed.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(12/11/03 4:01 pm)
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Re: Contacting Varachan
I assumed that the single Quasit I sent came from a scroll of Lesser Planar Ally that he possessed.
As far as Scry being given away by will saves, I had some mail exchange with both the Sage and custserv when 3.5 came out and they both said that there was no hostile tingle felt on a successful save. The Sage said "because it doesn't *do* anything to the target". There should be a thread here somewhere on that. Yes they are both sometimes wrong, but that's how I am playing it IMC (and it makes sense as in 3.0 there was never a giveaway tingle as it was skill based).
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Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(12/11/03 8:01 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Contacting Varachan
That's a good point, CC, but I guess too late for me. The druid IMC cast scrying on Hedrack and a couple minutes later he did a return scry, then cast message through the scry.
Varachan can't use scrolls, however. Nor can he use wands. Technically speaking anway, though I realize it makes it a lot more difficult for him to hide.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(12/11/03 8:56 pm)
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Re: Contacting Varachan
Are you sure he can't use scrolls and wands? My guess is you are thinking he is losing his spell list... but I believe that is an inherent part of the cleric class that isn't lost just by changing or falling out of favor with a deity. Just because he isn't praying and receiving spells doesn't mean he loses the list itself. Similar to the case of a 1st level paladin and ranger using a cure light wounds wand. Possible because it's on their list even though they can't cast it.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(12/12/03 4:35 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Contacting Varachan
As for Varachan, check out this thread on Clerics Without a Deity. I think that reference clearly proves his loses that ability. However, should you have a counterargument, please revive that thread since it is not particular to RttToEE and I'd like to involve everyone interested.
As for rangers, I also say they do not have the spell list yet until they get to 4th level. A ranger below 4th has no caster level, and thus has no list. This, IMO, would be equivalent to saying that a character plans on multiclassing into sorcerer next level, so surely (as a fighter) I can use a wand of magic missile now.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(12/12/03 7:35 am)
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Re: Contacting Varachan
Hmm interesting. You are right probably by the letter of that reading he would lose it. But I'm going to allow it IMC as it is still murky, he has a lot of wands and scrolls, and I like it better flavor wise if he can still use them.
But the 1st level ranger and paladins being able to use cure light wounds wands was covered in the 3.0 faq:
Quote:
Can a first level paladin or ranger use a wand of cure light wounds? Or must the character actually have enough levels to be a spellcaster?
The requirement for using a spell-trigger item (such as a wand) is having the spell stored on the item on your class spell list, not having the ability to cast the spell (see page 175 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). Since cure light wounds is on both the paladin and ranger class spell lists, paladins or rangers of any level can use wands of cure light wounds.
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Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(12/12/03 7:46 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Contacting Varachan
Thanks for the reference! Kale Fletcher will now sing the praises of St. Cordo!
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Roland the red
Tolling Bell Cultist
(12/12/03 7:45 pm)
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My 2cp
Well, its hardly errata or FAQ, but...
The Novels Dissolution, Insurrection, etc. while not Official in a Game Mechanics sense, are Canon.
Using that as a guideline, the Priestesses of Lolth have lost contact to Lolth, and yet retain the ability to use scrolls, wands, etc.
I personally feel that even a cleric who has "Fallen from Grace" should retain this ability. Why? Because the cleric is simply using a magic item. The reading of a scroll or activation is a spell trigger effect. That is to stay: "The spell is cast almost to completion" requiring the trigger to "finish" the spell. Having the spell on your list means you know the appropriate trigger. As the FAQ points out for the Paladin or ranger, they don't need to be able to cast the spell...having a list gives you access to spell triggers to those spells on your list.
All that said, HAVING A LIST is not a class ability...SPELLCASTING is. The use of wands or scrolls is not covered as a class ability, but is a GLOBAL property available to all classes. Fighters can, technically, use Scrolls that have spells on the Fighter spell list (its a very, very short list..haha)
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(12/12/03 10:29 pm)
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Re: My 2cp
Interesting point on the drow Roland... Thanks!
Your argument was exactly the one I was imagining could be made. The PH quote uses sweeping language, so I don't think it is clear whether the spell list loss issue was thought through and/or meant to be addressed by that.
You should post your input in I2K's other thread if you haven't yet.
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SWBaxter
Ebon Hand Cultist
(12/14/03 6:56 am)
Reply
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Re: Contacting Varachan
My group met Varachan when they went through the Fire Door the second time (Chymon was nasty enough the first time that they pulled back after the fight). They went north, and spooked the Drow guests who pulled back to look for reinforcements. They then fought the devil guest (a barbed devil in my 3.5 game), who bamfed away when things went poorly. Varachan gathered the drow and devil and lead them south to fight the intruders, then switched sides in the ensuing fight once it was clear all the bad guys could be killed before spreading the news. The group were willing to trust him as a result, particularly once they connected Varachan with the mysterious "V" who'd sent them a couple of letters.
So my group got Varachan's goodies and information, and he remained to try and learn more. Plot-wise, he's basically done; I think at some point soon they'll discover Varachan has been discovered by Hedrack and tortured to death, so the players can wonder what Varachan might have been forced to reveal about them... 
"Yes, no, maybe, I don't know... can you repeat the question?"
-- They Might Be Giants |
Zagig
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/15/03 2:14 am)
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Re: Contacting Varachan
I don't understand why everyone assumes that Varachan has lost all spell casting ability. I have always believed that Varachan just changed domains and became a godless cleric. Can't he do that?
Quote:
From the SRD:
If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
Zag ig
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Siobharek
Brother of Venom
(12/15/03 2:19 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Contacting Varachan
Well, it says in his stat block that he ain't got no spells... Also, I assume that if he actually began getting spells from somewhere else, it might be noted by some of the other clerics.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
smetzger
Tolling Bell Cultist
(12/15/03 6:53 am)
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Re: Contacting Varachan
Quote:
I don't understand why everyone assumes that Varachan has lost all spell casting ability. I have always believed that Varachan just changed domains and became a godless cleric. Can't he do that?
The more relavent quote from the SRD...
Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).
A strict interpretation would mean that he cannot use his crystal ball.
This also provides another reason for Varachan to contact the PCs. He wants to 'atone' for his sins and needs them to cast the spell.
Edited by: smetzger at: 12/15/03 6:55 am
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Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(12/15/03 7:04 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Contacting Varachan
Correct me if I'm wrong, but anyone can use a crystal ball. Varachan can't cast spells through it, but I'm pretty sure he can still use it.
Side question, though, let's say the PC's show up and agree to cast atonement on Varachan. What deity will Varachan now pick? Would he choose the deity of the PC that cast the spell, or someone else in particular?
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