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Author
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Comment
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Asperix
Tolling Bell Cultist
(12/11/03 4:49 pm)
Reply
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OOC HELP
I need advice. Normally I would post this on the regular DM board, but the follow has lots of specific RttToEE info.
I have an annoying player and I don't know if it's him or me. He occassionally whines about the lack of loot and that according to the dmg PC wealth tables the PCs are way behind. The party is about 9-10 lvl, outter fane and currently have about 50-60% of the dmg recommended wealth level guide. However I feel this is made up b/c of the elemental swords and 5 PCs in the group (instead of 4) and the module was written this way.
Ex1: During a battle near room 48, Dirass casts "stoneskin". That player then goes off on a OOC rant complaining this was a low-loot campaign, that PCs normally wouldn't cast it b/c it costs 250gp to cast, and it was an unfair spell for npc's to cast.
Ex2: After Varachan helps by giving the items of greater arrow slaying, potions, scrolls, etc.. the heroes eventually head back to town. That player tries to sell the items. But when I say that the shopkeep will only buy the arrows for 500gp each, he says, "I feel they are *way* low-balling us. I will hold on to them and wait until we get to another bigger town."?!?!?! Would his PC have a good idea of their worth? Or is he meta-gaming his butt off? He's playing an elf pal1/sorc9.
Ex3: He keeps annoying me during battles when he says "Oh, it's another tpk. That hedreck must have at least a 14fortitude <which isn't true, it's more like 11 or 12> so those arrows of slaying won't work." Or "That kadiss must have fire resistance <which wasn't true at all>, so my fireball won't have any affect".
Is it him or me? How can I make this game more enjoyable for everyone? I'm losing that DM enjoyment.
-Asperix
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SolidSnake
Tolling Bell Cultist
(12/11/03 5:45 pm)
Reply
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Re: OOC HELP
Asperix,
Sorry to have to reply to such unpleasant circumstances, but IMO it has nothing to do with you. This player of yours seems to think in one way and you have very different ideas on how DnD should be played. Personally, I tend to think allong your line of thinking: less metagaming, more ROLEplaying. I think you should have a talk with this guy...sit him down and explain how you feel his out-of-character/meta-gaming remarks are distracting from the atmosphere of your game, making difficult for you to weave your story and other people to appreciate it. Also, try (emphasis on try here, as it sounds like this guy is really set in his ways) to explain to him that the player handbook and DMG are GUIDELINES for how things run, not an official manual on every DnD world ever created. It's your world Asperix, not his. If that is loot you feel the party should get, then that is the loot they are going to get. If magical items cannot have price tags affixed to them because of their immeasurable value then so be it. DO NOT let this guy run your game and DO NOT let him ruin your fun. I always hesitate to say: "Boot him" because I don't know the whole story, but I do council communication as it is the root to all resolution of problems. That's just my two cents...tell us if this gets any better.
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arcane12
Tolling Bell Cultist
(12/11/03 6:39 pm)
Reply
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Re: OOC HELP
It definately does sound like you player could be a problem. It does seem that they are a bit low on stuff if they have only 50% of the _guideline_ in the DMG, but as you said, this is definately not a Monte Haul (sorry could not avoid the pun) campaign/module.
Were they slaying or greater slaying arrows? Your price seems a little off for the arrows, what is your conversion rate for treasure? it seems to be 25% which is fine for computer games because that is also usually the XP ratio (1/4 of normal) to make sure the PC's don't level too fast, but for a tabletop game items should roughly convert at no less than 50% (just over 1K for a slaying arrow, or 2K for a greater arrow). I personally do magic items for 75% average as there is the XP component, so they are worth it.
On the other side of the coin I also know what having too much magic items in a game can do to it. In an undermountain game I play in I have an artifact weapon at 10th level and am starting to regret it (it was a complete fluke that I ended up with it, but that is another story).
---edit---
(to continue)
I have (and am) played in a game where there there is a low value of items and, except at low levels, it doesn't hurt that much. It does, however, come down to how much below. 50% od the recommended is ok. 33% or less is not OK. The party will be fighting monsters and encounters designed with the idea that they will logically have certain items at certain levels, and generally be equiped with a certain level of gear.
Looking at your apparent situation I think you should see if they player is disrupting the group or voicing the overall feeling of the group. He is obviously to a smaller or lesser extent disrupting play and that is bad. However it does not mean he may not have an actual grievance. He is going about it the wrong way.
Take him aside and listen to what he has to say. Look at the other players (or even talk to them) and see if they think the same. Look at your methods of restricting their income and decide if it is too harsh. You may want to lighten up a little. You may be doing fine.
And one thing for your player to think about: Ok bad guy casts stone skin - if I had have stopped him we would have had that diamond dust. He may still have some left. If he does then there is nothing stopping them from casting stone skin next time they want 
Anyway, when it all comes down to it, it's only a game and it's about having fun! It is your job to make sure they have fun by being challenged (but not overly so) and giving in to their every whim would be as much a kill joy as being stingy. It is easier to give than it is to take away :P
Edited by: arcane12 at: 12/11/03 7:14 pm
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 Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(12/11/03 7:47 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: OOC HELP
I'm with SolidSnake on this 100%. It sounds like the player is also a DM (do you guys rotate DMing?) and doesn't have the same tastes in gaming that you do. Perhaps after a little discussion, you will clear it up. You tell him what kind of game you like and want to run and he can tell you what he likes and wants to run. If neither of you are willing to compromise, then it would be time to part ways. There's no sense in ruining the game for everyone else.
However, even if you guys don't agree on what kind of game you both want, there's no excuse for his absolutely terrible behavior at the table. Those OOC comments are complete crap. If he did them inadvertently, perhaps it's forgivable, but from your explanation it is apparent that he said such things intentionally to ruin the game.
Best of luck.
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Narben
Ebon Hand Cultist
(12/11/03 8:58 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: OOC HELP
I'd agree with the above advice
The other question is how is this player calculating perceived wealth? Is he valuing gear at what it could be sold for or market value? The figures in the DMG are a guideline for creating a PC of a certain level, the money is spent paying full price for gear. If your player is calculating the value of his items based on what he could sell them for then it's going to be only 50% of the figure in the guide, in which case you're on track.
There's lots of other ways players can affect their wealth level. If they never keep anything, prefering to sell it to buy a custom item, then they're always going to be losing money. Likewise if they buy everything instead of using item creation feats they're also paying out twice the cash.
Finally, lowballing on prices for items can be justified if the town can't buy them. The only place in the entire adventure with wealth to deal in most magic items is Verbobonc. Hommlet has a 800gp limit, Rastor has a 600gp limit. If players are desperate to sell they'll have to take less than the true value
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Knowe Remorse 
Tolling Bell Cultist
(12/11/03 9:41 pm)
Reply
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this is a lame debate
there should be no debate on this whatsoever....
if the DM wants to run a low magic campaign, its really really easy for that DM to also effectively compensate by weakening opponents and likewise, if the evil npc's arent dropping "phat lewts" then those npcs arent using those magical items against the party either.
I've had such low magic campaigns where level 10 melee classes were violently arguing over the newly dropped Greatsword +2 and who would get it. Wizards were licking their chops over lower-mid level scrolls, etc...
If it is a good story, where the players fit in, it can be next to zero magic campaign and still be fun.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(12/12/03 12:34 am)
Reply
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Hold on a second guys...
Your player is absolutely out of line for raising this in a disruptive way at the table rather than bringing his concerns to you directly one-on-one, but everyone's already telling you that above.
That said, he does have a point in that something is definitely wrong. As you guys above say if the DM chooses to run the campaign that way, then the players need to accept that. However, it doesn't look to me that this what is going on. Unless I'm misunderstanding, the module is being run as written, but the players are at 50% of the loot level.
RttToEE is *not* a "low loot" campaign. In fact, each of the major areas appears to be carefully balanced to give very close to the proper treasure for the xp the players should be earning for the challenge ratings. It's completely standard, middle-of-the-road, and if they players are underpowered they will definitely be having a harder time than they should. Especially on the more challenging CR 13-14 encounters at that level.
Are they really at 50%? What is your analysis of why? Players have to be careful to try to sell everything they can, including the armor and masterwork weapons from the mooks, as that stuff adds up to quite a lot over time. Have they not been gathering and selling the armor and MW weapons?
Also I have to disagree with you arcane12 that 50% below the recommended level seems to make little difference. I would agree at low levels, but we are talking 9 to 10 here and that's something like 25K at that level... 25K is huge!
So my recommendation would be to:
1) Start boosting the treasure levels unless there is a good reason for the PCs to be so low (i.e. they are spending it all on raise deads)
2) Pull the player aside, tell him that you feel his behavior is disruptive and harming the game. Tell him it is hurting your motivation as a DM. But hear him out about his concerns, as this may be the root of everything. When he complains about being low powered, tell him that they can expect to start finding more treasure in the Outer Fane. I wouldn't tell him that you are going to start boosting, as that might feed his ego and make the problem worse. ("See! I was right!")
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Renegade
Brother of Venom
(12/12/03 1:34 am)
Reply
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Re: Hold on a second guys...
I couldn't help but notice the pal1/sorX bit.  Are you playing 3.0? If so, he's cherrypicking, too. (3.5 paladins don't get Divine Grace until 2nd level.) Your player is out of order. My knee jerk reaction if a player did this to me would be to just hit him with a Mordenkainen's disjunction for complaining about treasure. My players know this, so I don't have that problem.  But seriously, he's disrupting the game and he's metagaming all to hell on top of that.
"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."--John F. Kennedy |
Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(12/12/03 4:24 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Hold on a second guys...
Yeah, the Pal1/Sor9 bit is further evidence of the player min-maxing. The low loot (whether his fault or yours is irrelevant IMO) is merely his being upset at cramping his mixmaxing style. There's no way he took Pal1 for "flavor", it is clearly an attempt at powergaming. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it just outlines the difference in the styles of play ad what you guys expect out of the game.
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msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/12/03 6:47 am)
Reply
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Hidden loot
My party is probably only extracting about 50-80% of the loot in the CRM, due to the fact that much of it is hidden, and they haven't been searching a lot. Also, much of the loot is expendable goods that get used up during the fight.
Another big source of loot in the CRM is the Walking Cash Depositories^W^W^W1st Level Warriors, with their masterwork swords and potions of cure light wounds. If the party doesn't have a way to transport that gear back to Verbobonc for sale, they're losing out. IMC, I bumped Rerrid up to Clr6, and he'll accept any regular-sized MW weapons the party finds in exchange for enchanting arms and armor, so most of the party has +2 armor now.
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madfox
Brother of Venom
(12/12/03 7:00 am)
Reply
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Re: Hidden loot
Quote:
My knee jerk reaction if a player did this to me would be to just hit him with a Mordenkainen's disjunction for complaining about treasure.
I am glad then that I don't play at your campaign - either that or you are exaggerating here. There is nothing wrong with a player complaining about things as long as he does it in a polite way and outside of the gaming table. I prefer to at least try to make the game fun for all involved and if my players do not tell me what they like and don't like there is no chance I can do so.
Further then that, 50% of the treasure at lvl 10+ is a LOT. Of course, as a player I can live with it, but the DM should be aware that the characters are definitely weaker then normal and that spellcasters are relatively more powerful. A DM who under those circumstances still uses the CRs as presented in the MMs will get into trouble.
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smetzger
Tolling Bell Cultist
(12/12/03 8:02 am)
Reply
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Re: Hidden loot
I have not figured my characters value. But RttToEE is not a low loot campaign. For them to only have 50% means something has gone wrong.
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Knowe Remorse
Tolling Bell Cultist
(12/12/03 11:20 am)
Reply
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echem
run the campaign the way you want to. If you want it low magic then run it low magic. I havent played the newer RTTTOEE but i did run a campaign in the original module years ago.
I have a huge distaste for Gygax's style of extreme hack-n-slash, no brains all brawn style of modules, so i modified the module, made the module more devious to my liking and made the players work their asses off to bring it down. The party more or less started doing gorilla warfare rather than bull or blow through things as the original module was designed.
I can't speak for Monte Cooks module, but if this DM wants to run it differently, he can easily remove or modify certain encounters and have it be just as challenging as the module with which you guys are playing.
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Narben
Ebon Hand Cultist
(12/12/03 12:06 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: echem
Asperix, out of curiousity have you sat down and checked the players equipment lists to see if they are low?
If you do confront the disruptive player it would be helpful to have facts on your side when he inevitably raises the loot issue. Being able to say "I reviewed your loot and can't see a problem" could be important.
I'd also like to see responses from DM's who ran the game with more than 4 players as to whether they encountered any loot problems at later levels
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Vampus Souldrainer
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/12/03 7:22 pm)
Reply
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Re: echem
This is a complex situation that no quick answer will solve.
My first question is, what does he mean, ANOTHER TPK? How many have there been? Why did they happen? Don't get me wrong, sooner or later a TPK will come up (I've even had one in my own DMing career), but if a PC is complaining about too many of them, I would say something has gone terribly awry. Most TPK's should be a result of PC stupidity or bad tactics, not underequipped PC's.
Next, why 50%? With 3-6 people of the correct levels, I wouldn't change any of the treasure or challenges at all, because it's already balanced.
If he is complaining, then it's pretty apparent that he's not having much fun. Why isn't he having fun? Is the player a power gamer? Most likely, but does that make him a bad player? Not in itself. Part of DMing lies in giving the players what they want, and it's not always easy to find the right mixture.
With Tharizdun's impending return, the risk of death needs to be ever-present, and some PC's will die for no reason from time to time, but you must also give the players a chance to have an impact. It sounds to me like the PC feels powerless, so you want to make him feel empowered. Give him more choices in the game, let him run wild with some (NOT *NECESSARILY* ALL) of his ideas. You might be pleasantly surprised. Work with him a bit and see what you come up with.
I strive to improve my living conditions by hoarding gold, food, and sometimes keys and potions. I love adventure, fighting, and particularly winning - especially when there's a prize at stake. I occasionally get lost inside buildings and can't find the exit. I need food badly.
What type of video game character are you?
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Roland the red
Tolling Bell Cultist
(12/12/03 7:27 pm)
Reply
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DM with 5Pcs one game 10Pcs the other
When the module was first released I ran 10 PCs up through the CRM before moving out-of-state (there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth).
I am currently running 5PCs ina purpsoefully more deadly campaign (not realyy more deadly as much as less lenient...all players except one are on at least their 2nd character...but thats another topic.)
I don't really think there is too little GP wealth in the module. If PCs keep everything, selling and using nothing, they should have exactly what the DMG recommends for characters of that level. On the other end, if PCs sell EVERYTHING and buy back what they want (using up nothing), they should have about 50% of the DMG, assuming re-sale of 50%.
The reality should fall somewhere in between.
I did not do a survey with the 10 PC group, but there were LOTS of support characters, some whose sole function was crafting of magic, and there seemed to be no problems. I didn't change the module at all...The idea was that it would be easier at first, and at some point they would be challenged (the Fire Temple was the wall...its what, 9th level? the PCs were like 7th level at that point). The GP was hard to come by, but they were resourceful and sold even the non-MW stuff (with LOTS of PCs and mooks from leadership feat, a nice salvage operation was eventually started)
The current group of 5 PCs ran into a bit of Trouble with Vranthis, and I thought to myself "Are they adequately equipped?"...so I surveyed their Characters and what did I discover? They were actually slightly ABOVE the recommended...
I suppose the "Magic Item Farm" of allowing PCs to keep their fallen comrades loot contributed to this, but I do enforce a Level loss penalty on raises and even on new characters (who must start 1 less than party average)...which means that the 8th level party would be more like 9th level had everyone not died once...with that in mind, they are actually just UNDER the DMG guideline.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(12/12/03 10:20 pm)
Reply
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xp gain and gp gain should balance out
Regarding the question above on whether other DMs have seen an impact in larger parties, my answer is no from actual experience (my group has fluxuated from 4 to 6 at times).
Also, while the treasure has to be split into more shares, more players in the party means less xp per player as well. That should keep it aligned no matter what the party size unless we are talking about an extreme.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
Asperix
Tolling Bell Cultist
(12/12/03 11:03 pm)
Reply
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Re: OOC HELP
Thanks everyone for your input. Here's some clarification.
1. The average player is actually more like 60-70% of dmg pc-recommended recommended wealth value. This is market value (i.e. as if the player had the gold and started buying their eq).
2. Part of the disagreement is that I count "consumable items" (i.e. wands of healing, scrolls, potions) as part of each person's net worth whereas that pal/sorc player does not. w/o the "consumable items", it's more like 50-60%
3. No one in the group until recently took item crafting feats. Then that player left the group. Almost all the PCs want to sell everything and buy their customized equipment.
When PCs sell equip, I go off the typical 50% re-sale value except for gems. Gems & art objects get 100% re-sale value. However in rastor or a small village I've been capp'ing the resale to a max of 500-700gp per item. Hommlet has no max limit.
4. The reason I had the shopkeep willing to buy the greater arrows of slaying for only 500gp was b/c the pal/sorc tried to sell the arrows in the orc-village, a few miles away from rastor. I ruled that in economic terms, the orc-village was comparable to rastor. So then the pal/sorc decides he was way under-priced and wants to hold on to them.
5. I have changed very little with Monte's RttToEE in terms of adding/removing treasure. The party originally didn't have a rogue for over half the sessions, and missed out on some loot. The party also didn't have item crafting for over 80% of the sessions, and therefore brought the average pc wealth lower. I have played the evil npc's intelligently so if they are near death, they run away, along with their goodies they are carrying.
6. With the comment about the tpk, there has NEVER been a tpk in my RttToEE game. There have been single deaths in a particular battle, but never a tpk. We're at session 40 and in the past 10 sessions there has been 1 pc death. I felt that pal/sorc player was making snide OOC remarks such as "Looks like the DM wants a TPK, let's get ready to roll up some new PCs". He's made that comment at least a few times. I find it very annoying and aggrevating in getting me out of the DM mood. I don't know about other DMs, but I'd like to know if I'm taking this too seriously.
7. As for the rules, we are still using 3.0. So yes, that player is min/maxing when opting for the pal1/sorcx so he can get the divine grace boost. I wasn't very comfortable with it, but allowed it since I figured PC's would try to do this too. He also wrote a brief background story explaining it.
My Q's:
1. If PCs sell everything to get their customized equip, does it mean it's perfectly ok and expected for PCs to have 50-60% of the dmg pc wealth? Does this mean CR 's are still ok with the lower eq value of the PCs?
2. If none of the PC's play rogues or choose item crafting feats, the PCs inevitably get lower loot than the dmg pc wealth tables. Does this mean the DM has an obligation to add in more loot into Monte's RttToEE campaign so the PC's are more in par with the challenges?
3. The party got 3 greater arrows of slaying from varachan. Is it normal for a player to say, "I think the shopkeep is low-balling me in rastor (or the orc-town). I know I can get these 3 greater arrows of slaying for much more in verbobonc."?
4. What to do with those OOC tpk remarks?
Thnx for your input everyone. *whew*
-Asperix
Edited by: Asperix at: 12/12/03 11:17 pm
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msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/12/03 11:22 pm)
Reply
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Re: OOC HELP
First of all, it certainly sounds like this paladin's player is being a bit of a jerk. You should talk to him about it, away from a game session. Regardless of who's right or wrong on the specific issues, his attitude in the game is making it less fun for you to DM, and you need to deal with that.
For your questions 1 & 2, it sounds to me like your party is simply not optimized for treasure collection, in a number of ways (no rogue, no crafter, always selling found items). You might want to give them some friendly in-game advice from an NPC, such as Varachan or Rerrid. You could throw in some extra treasure to compensate for their low net worths, but you're certainly under no obligation to do so.
For question 3, on the other hand, I think the paladin/sorcerer is in the right, here. The orcs _were_ lowballing him, because that was all they could afford to pay. A greater slaying arrow costs over 4000gp. It's not unreasonable for the character to know that 500gp is way too low. Note that, at least the way you wrote it, the complaints were in character; he wasn't complaining about you, he was complaining about the orcs. Nothing wrong with that, IMO.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(12/13/03 5:35 am)
Reply
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Re: OOC HELP
1. Well he is wrong in that consumable items should absolutely be counted. With your background explanation, I can see where they would be at that level. If they are at 70% I would say they are still ok if they have an extra member or two. To solve the imbalance I would probably start boosting treasure levels slightly and would also tell the players out of game what you have said above--your analysis of why they are below.
2. Obligation... no. It's up to you. But if you don't boost you should realize they will have a more challenging time. This may be balanced out by extra members.
3. It's arguably meta-gaming to do so, but its the type of meta-gaming that many many people do so I wouldn't let it bother you. However personally I would probably be bothered that Varachan game them these items to help fight the doomdreamers, but they are selling them off. Unfortunately the utility of an arrow of slaying is much lower in 3.5 with the new power of death ward, but still it doesn't seem like the right decision to sell them for other loot.
4. Pull him aside and talk to him as pointed out above. It sounds like he thinks you have it out for them, you need to tell him that isn't the case, listen to any concerns he has, but also tell him that you think his behavior is disrupting the game and it is hurting your personal motivation to continue as DM.
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Vampus Souldrainer
Crimson Coil Cultist
(12/13/03 10:37 am)
Reply
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Re: OOC HELP
Quote:
It's arguably meta-gaming to do so, but its the type of meta-gaming that many many people do so I wouldn't let it bother you.
Call me crazy, but doesn't most of the DM's job take place within the realm of the metagame world?
I strive to improve my living conditions by hoarding gold, food, and sometimes keys and potions. I love adventure, fighting, and particularly winning - especially when there's a prize at stake. I occasionally get lost inside buildings and can't find the exit. I need food badly.
What type of video game character are you? |
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