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Author
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Comment
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(1/13/04 4:19 am)
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Game moving slowly in outer fanes
I'm slightly concerned that the pace of my game seems to have dropped the past couple of sessions. Since my group's first foray into the outer fane, things have been moving very slowly. Perhaps this is all due to my group's conservative play style, and approach in teleporting out at the first real sign of danger, but maybe the hivemind will point out some important factor I've missed.
Anyway, the past few sessions, here is a summary of what has happened.
Session 29: This was the last *great* session in my mind. Varachan contacted the group for the first time, filled them in on what is going on, and gave them the mission to enter the outer fane for the first time and retreive the Orb of Oblivion. They defeat the elder earth elemental, easily wipe out the human guards, walk invisibly past the flesh golems, get the Orb of Silvery Death and teleport out. This was a great, pulse-pounding action filled session.
After this mission is over, they buff with Death Ward, and mis-teleport (aiming for the earth door), landing near the water door. They fall in the water and have an interesting fight with the Tojanida and the Minotaur Barbarians.
But not much experience or treasure from this.
Session 30: They move and attack Chymon. Chymon retreats at half hit points to get Maracla and Dirass. The group immediately retreats. The next day they move to explore the main entrance, earth temple, and air bridge complex, which is empty and has been explored by another party...
Again, they didn't kill any of the major enemies, and got very little treasure for their trouble (the pile of coins is mostly copper).
Session 31: They try to approach the air door by way of the air bridge.
[Asdie: Now here what is happening as far as scrying is important. Hedrack is very upset at the Champion being taken off his hands and whisked away by the Doomdreamers ("I found him!"). His primary task now that he has found the champion and the group are making forays into the outer fane is to deal with the group. He is scrying with greater scry from the time they awake until evening. Then Varachan takes over in the evening, this way they have them on watch 24/7.]
Now the group knows they are being scried, and as soon as they start across the air bridge the sensor winks out. Not taking the hint, they continue across. Hedrack performs a sending to Chymon who emerges, intercepts the group and chases them back to the air bridge complex with their tails beneath their legs.
Next day, realizing crossing through the open bridge area is dangerous, they decide to chance teleporting directly into the fanes. They teleport to the pillar right outside Hedrack's room. Again, the scry sensor winks out. (Hedrack performs a sending to Thrommel and Bethe.) The group moves south, encounters the human guard reinforcements from the air bridge (and one who escaped them earlier), kill a couple take the rest prisoner. Immediately Oamarthis and the Chimera (who were pulled back to reinforce the earth door) move north and are quickly killed. During this time Bethe makes an appearance but quickly runs when she realizes the mage has see invisibility up. Finally, Thrommel arrives. While most of the group is in Bethe's room searching for her (she had moved north to Hedrack's room but they throught she might be hiding), Thrommel shows up and quickly knocks the cleric down to 0 hit points. They immediately all teleport out (two separate teleports).
So they got a couple of minor kills here but left all of the treasure.
The next day they teleport into the room outside the assassins' room with the weeping statue. They had scried Bethe here 15 minutes earlier, but she saw the sensor. Being no fool she left in the intervening time, going to Hedrack's room.
Hedrack performs a sending to Chymon, aiming to bring the dragon in this time (through a dimension door by Dirass) but before they can get their act together the group leaves the area, going to the south. They enter the secret door, walk through the grinder relatively unscathed, enter the Water Door and kill Gouquog (Nilbool was quivering in fear behind the door where the minotaurs used to reside but they didn't check there.) Being afraid of being caught, they don't bother to check Gouquog for treasure, leaving a significant amount of stuff in the bottom of the pool.
Then they moved west and wiped out the bugbear guards. Session ended here.
But now again, very little xp from the session (1350xp for the 10th levellers) and only Oamarthis' bag of gems (300gp) to show for it all.
So yeah my feeling is that very little progress has been made the past couple of sessions. My fault? Their fault? A combination? Is there a solution? Or am I fretting about something that isn't really a problem?
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Grumgarr
Crimson Coil Cultist
(1/13/04 4:54 am)
Reply
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Re: Game moving slowly in outer fanes
From your description I think the group is just being careful.
Certainly my group expected many more foes in the Outer Fane...
The challenge level of the Outer Fane ramps up very quickly if the bad guys can get together in numbers, so the quick in, quick out approach is keeping your group relatively unscathed.
Of course if you think they're having too easy a time of it you could hurry them up a bit - don't let them feel they can take their time. End of the World, and all that. My group were already feeling time running out...maybe Varachan can let them know the Champion has been found...and that this means Very Bad Things, Very Soon.
Or if Hedrack's had enough of their coming and going as they please, have him Planar Ally a teleporting beastie and order it to 'retrieve' the keys from whoever carries them (if he's scrying all the time, he should have some accurate info). That will force them to teleport into the Fanes, meaning they also have to teleport out (or force someone to open a Door for them). Hedrack could also spend some time securing important areas with Forbiddance, narrowing the possibilities for where the invaders can arrive.
If I were Hedrack and I'd been attacked in my home repeatedly by the same people (whom I was able to scry), I'd send a very nasty midnight visitation to them - the nastiest Planar Ally I could muster, armed with all the knowledge I had about its foes-to-be...and Bethe too, make her earn her keep. Possibly Chymon as well, if they rest far from the public eye, or if the Planar Ally is going to cause mayhem anyway.
Hell, Chymon could probably just burn Rastor to the ground if that's their base. Or (wicked thought  ) do this to draw the PCs out...and then the Planar Ally strikes!
I don't know how much your group can handle, but this needn't be a fight they can win. If they're forced to flee, and return to find desolation and many slain innocents, they'll hate Hedrack all the more, and truly savour his eventual defeat.
Grumgarr
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(1/13/04 5:12 am)
Reply
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Re: Game moving slowly in outer fanes
Thanks Grumgarr... Much food for thought.
Just to clarify, I don't necessarily want to hurry them , I'm just worried they might start to get bored or frustrated at the lack of movement in the game/xp/loot.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
 Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(1/13/04 6:32 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Game moving slowly in outer fanes
I think you should ask them. To me, it just seems like they are being very careful until they understand the foes they are facing. Are they very experienced with high level play? If not, they are doing the right thing. Chances are that they are still having a lot of fun. You will not give anything away IMO if you discuss your concerns in the open with your group at this point.
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Mr Kaze
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/13/04 7:43 am)
Reply
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Re: Game moving slowly in outer fanes
Why should the PCs hurry if all the bad guys are doing is scrying on them 24/7? If you think your PCs are moving slow, then the villians should be doing something for themselves...
Grumgarr's suggestion of setting up Forbiddance ("Randomly, one day, you notice the magical detectors wink out... I wonder what they could be up to?") is a fabulous proactive behavior on the part of Hedrack to work on locking down his territory without the use of keys. I'd probably do that one first, myself, as I've been a fan of Forbiddance for some time now.
If Chymon is still alive and the party is within range, teleport/dimension door Chymon to the party for a fight. Chymon should be annoyed that (s)he's fought the party twice and both times they've escaped -- thus the dragon is willing to 'perform this task for free, unlike some greedy 'ol Planar Ally.' (Of course, this sort of "teleport the fight to the party" suggestion is why teleport and dimension door spells don't generally work in my game.) If Hedrack doesn't think that Chymon's really up to the task, then send Chymon and a Planar Ally (which Chymon would resent) -- but only if it won't result in a TPK, which it should since you've got scrying 24/7 of the PCs so you can wait for them to be vulnerable.
But that's getting too nasty.
As a variation, have the teleporting happen while Varachan's on duty such that Chymon (or whoever) is going just as the PCs are arriving, giving them a window of opportunity to slip past a fight that would leave them pretty battered.
Of course, if Hedrack's directive is to "Deal with them" and he's got a bit of an issue with authority at the moment, he may bundle up everybody he's got in a grand show of mad hubris, teleport to the party and try to buy them off so that they don't continue their quest -- "Oh come on, what's one more god in the pantheon? Here's $5000 in loot, just leave us and our religion be!" Thus, he can with great certainty, have followed the deal with them directive perfectly.
Hope it inspires,
::Kaze
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Thrommel
Runechild (mod)
Council of Magisters
(1/13/04 9:11 am)
Reply
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Re: Game moving slowly in outer fanes
Seems to me that the party is looking for a weak point which they can reliably use to attack. So far, every foray into the Fanes has failed to reveal one.
I had a similar problem in the pacing of my game. The players would attack, defeat some guards, and retreat. The bad guys would analyze their tactics, bring in reinforcements, and dig in. My party fought for control of the same room at least three times.
Now, strategically, what happened made sense. And they were draining all the available reinforcements.
But pacing-wise, they didn't know that, and so they just felt like they were fighting the same fight over and over and over. They weren't gaining any more information, they weren't really getting any treasure, and they certainly weren't going anywhere.
In some respect, the same thing may be happening to your group. I can think of a couple options: either the players need to benefit from some intervention by Varachan, or Hedrack needs to make a stand.
Varachan should be genuinely worried if the Champion has been found and sent to the Recovered Temple. He needs to take some dramatic action to help the party along. He could give the party info to help them spring an ambush, he could misdirect troops, he could instiate a coup against Hedrack, or he could sacrifice himself to save their bacon in the midst of a big fight. But he should really be doing something. The Big T could be loose any minute, honestly.
(I like the idea of him talking Chymon into taking out Hedrack, myself. Imagine the party getting whipped by Hedrack and then Chymon whacks him one. A little deus ex machina, but craftly properly, it could be a great surprise.)
As for Hedrack making a stand - it's kind of dumb. I'm sure we could all think of 16 different ways he could dispose of the party without breaking a sweat given the resources at his disposal and his spell list. However, sometimes the villains have to make rash or unreasonable decisions in order to advance the action. Cat and mouse games are not particularly fun in an combat-oriented game like D&D.
Maybe Hedrack's had enough of the little forays that test his defenses. Perhaps he kidnaps someone and sends a message to the PC's, trying to lure them into an ambush.
At any rate, think about the fact that Hedrack's slowly losing some of his forces and probably also losing his patience. (If he can deal quickly with the party, he can turn the OF over to Varachan and go to the Recovered Temple.)
The other thing to keep in mind - I don't think the drow are particularly devoted to Hedrack. They are ambassadors. The party is Hedrack's problem, not theirs. I don't think they'd cotton much to being ordered around to teleport people here and there.
If you begin to see the forces as factionalized individuals (Hedrack vs. Thrommel vs. Varachan vs. the drow, etc), Hedrack's command becomes a lot more tenuous. That creates vulnerabilities which favor the party.
A final note: I'd definitely check in with the players and see how they're enjoying the game. That's the best way to get a read on what's happening. Maybe they like the cat & mouse game.
-Thrommel, who likes a dire tiger and wererat game himself. Rar!
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errant42
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/13/04 11:17 am)
Reply
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Re: Game moving slowly in outer fanes
Concur with Thrommel. Factionalizing the Doom Dreamers makes this portion much more interesting and also offers some dramatic RP opportunities. And it just makes sense-- these are insane, CE individuals, sociopaths who generally don't play well with others. My DD roster has shifted significantly, and will change more as time goes on due to internal power struggles.
The First and the Second (an Illithid and a Beholder IMC) are pretty tight, if only because they have the exact same goal: end the world. This alone allows them to keep some control over the rest of the DDs.
Hedrack has "removed" the Third and taken her position, and Naquent is planning to do the same to him. She's already trying to form a powerbase of her own for this reason, and is making overtures of an alliance with Thrommel (she's a variant Mistress of Shrouds IMC, and is very adept at working the undead angle).
Once Lareth is found, he will consolidate a power bloc of his own-- he IS the Champion, the Chosen One, after all, and (from his perspective, anyway) he should be calling all of the shots.
Dirass (a drider) also has his own ideas about how things should be done, and although he is currently "loyal" to the First, he also is gathering forces in hopes of seizing some power for himself.
And of course Varachan is the perpetual fly in the ointment, trying to sublty thwart everything that goes on and slow things down as much as possible. Once this is discovered, his remaining lifespan will be measured in hours unless the PCs can get him out of there.
When a powerful party of adventurers shows up-- powerful enough to have drawn the attention of most of the Outer Fane-- it's going to upset the balance of power. These various sycophants and megalomaniacs won't be able to resist using them in their scheme against one another.
Anyway, I'm not trying to heist your thread, I just think that this section has a lot of role-playing, back-stabbing, double-dealing potential. I can see it getting very tedious if it's just battle after battle, crawling the dungeon and clearing the rooms. Plus, you miss out on the chance to make these bad guys really unique and memorable, not just a series of tough fights. So you might try injecting some unexpecting RP opportunities.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(1/15/04 6:34 am)
Reply
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Re: Game moving slowly in outer fanes
I asked my players...Quote:
I just wanted to ask your opinion of the pace of the last couple of games. You guys are playing pretty conservatively, using your teleport/dimension door mobility to good effect. This has meant that your accomplishments are less clear and there is certainly less experience per session. It's really no problem for me as DM--I understand some of it is that you understand, rightly so, that the level of danger is higher in the outer fanes, and that as the characters reach high level it is becoming a bit different of a game. But I also wanted to make sure no one is bored/frustrated.
Repsonses--Oskar:Quote:
I don't know if it's because of the way we play, if we're conservative as a group, if we're not "properly" equipped, or if we're just unlucky, but it seems to me like all of a sudden we're seriously outmatched. The vampire spanked Callisto HARD without even using any of his special abilities (admittedly, he got lucky and critted with a greatsword that he obviously has specialization in, but still...). The dragon tears anything without DR up bad. Maybe we're just in a weird place where the ogres, duergar, and chimerae are too easy, but the villains the next step up are a little too hard for us.
Me:Quote:
Ok but are you bored, frustrated, or ok with this?
Oskar: Quote:
A little frustrated. As I said, I haven't yet determined whether it's a flaw of ours or the module's yet. Of course, we should expect things in the inner fane to get harder, but it seems like there's a significant jump in EL and I don't know if we're ready for it.
Mooselips:Quote:
I'm personally OK with this -- it's a matter of making the most of each our incursions, and fast-forwarding the bits in between, I think.
Aranel: Quote:
I feel a little frustrated as a character, but not a player. But that's as it should be, I suppose. We go in, put up a pretty good fight, take out a few enemies, but never have time to reap the rewards... We never stick around to search or loot the dead. Understandably, because we can usually assume that reinforcements are on the way. I don't know if I'd say we're outmatched though.... I think we could have taken that vampire if if if.... there's always an if... That fight could have gone our way. It just didn't.
Callisto:Quote:
In terms of progress, what I feel is really holding me back is the pure fear of death. This module seems pretty deadly (especially now), and I don't know well balanced it is now with the higher v3.5 cost of death. For example, if that vamp took me out last time then I would basically have lost almost a level and a half worth of experience (not to mention the cost in gp), and I'm pretty sure that level 9 would be below par for the current CRs of the encounters. Normally, I like to play more aggressively, but I feel the risks are too great, resulting in a much more conservative slower style of play. I guess you could say I'm a bit frustrated, but it's not a huge problem for me.
I still haven't heard back from Blix yet, but I guess it is pretty clear that while the players are feeling it, and it's good that I'm aware of it, it's not yet at a big problem... Just thought you guys might enjoy a glimpse into the heads of some players.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(1/15/04 6:37 am)
Reply
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Re: Game moving slowly in outer fanes
Oh just as a FYI, my group composition is:
Blix, Rogue 11
Callisto Monk 1/Cleric (Fharlanghn) 9 - 1000 xp from level 11
Aranel, Wizard (Diviner) 7/Loremaster 3
Oskar, Fighter 8/Cleric (Moradin) 2
Mooselips, Druid 10
Most of them are between 50 to 55k gp of equipment, and they were built with 32 points so levels and equipment shouldn't be a big issue.
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
Siobharek 
Brother of Venom
(1/15/04 7:07 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Game moving slowly in outer fanes
Sounds like you've got some good players there. I envy you. It does indeed sound like you needn't worry too much.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(1/15/04 7:11 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Game moving slowly in outer fanes
You should seriously consider using the death-is-less-painful rules. I had a feeling that my players would adopt the same attitude and be less heroic, fearing the loss of XP more than the IG flavor pain and agony of dying. IMO, that hurts the game. So, we have the negative level rule and XP debt of 500/current level, and that you gain XP for the fight in which you died. The players are happy with it, particularly after Infinitus whacked 3/6 of them.
If you do decide this, you'll need to readjust some XP for past deaths, but not a lot. I'd just put everyone at an average level (i.e. those who died gained more when at lower levels, so don't over-adjust).
That, to me, seems like the main point. There is a significant difference between the CRM and OF, but they should be able to handle it. After a few tries, they will quickly learn some useful tactics and the appropriate spells to prepare. If they are too scared to really give it an honest try, then they never will. By now, the cleric should have searing light and death ward and everyone should have resist energy or protection from energy.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(1/15/04 8:16 am)
Reply
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Re: Game moving slowly in outer fanes
I2K, do you use the 3.5 gp costs as written for the ressurection line? You know it's funny... I've waffled so much on this. I used to have such "death is less painful" rules when we were in 3.0 (and wrote the Fellowship spell for that very purpose, which some old timers may recall), but hardly anyone else at the time seemed to be doing this, leading me to think maybe that was going too easy on the players.
And then when 3.5 made the FRCS experience system official, in which characters are 'behind' are automatically adjusted upwards, I told my players that along with the conversion to 3.5 we would be going to standard death penalty rules.
As far as their spells, they are appropriately paranoid. They are all going in Death Warded (both due to Cleric spell death effects and because they know a powerful vampire resides in the area) and this latest incursion they buffed with PfE: Fire even though they weren't teleporting near the fire door.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(1/15/04 7:13 pm)
Reply
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Re: Game moving slowly in outer fanes
Here's Blix's feedback:
Quote:
I am a little frustrated at the pace of the game, but I don't think that's anyone's fault, and I don't think there's anything that can or should be done about it from a DM intervention/adjustment point of view. We're fighting baddies who are tough *and* smart and it's hard to put those kinds of guys down. Half the time, they kick our ass, and the other half, they run away and we just have to fight 'em again. But dems da breaks. That's the way the module's written, I guess, and when Pat plays the baddies to their baddest, that's what makes the game fun. I want to beat these guys, but I don't want any winds of fate blowing at our backs helping us along.
I (and Blix) are hungry for blood. After finding Bibble's head in a chamberpot, Blix wants Hedrack's head on a plate and a dragon steak for dinner. I'm sure that's what we all want, but I want to get it through daring, cleverness, sneakiness, creativity, chutzpah, better dice rolls, better luck, and lots and lots of back-stabbing. Either that or stoneskin 
Anyway, we spend a lot of time making plans in session, and 9/10ths of the time, they don't work, so I'm thinkin' we just gotta make better plans. Our little Air Bridge fiasco is a perfect example: hey, let's make our intention to cross the bridge really obvious... then DO IT!
Next time we end a session with the party camped, I think we should take advantage of the situation to role-play some planning out of session. That way (a) we'll spend less time mucking about in session, and (b) who knows? maybe we'll actually come up with a plan that works!
"They were immediately and absolutely recognizable as adventurers. They were hardy and dangerous, lawless, stripped of allegiance or morality, living off their wits, stealing and killing, hiring themselves out to whoever and whatever came... They were scum who died violent deaths, hanging on to a certain cachet among the impressionable through their undeniable bravery and their occasionally impressive exploits" China Mieville, Perdido Street Station |
Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(1/15/04 10:06 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Chamber Pot Bibble
Great response. I'm glad the chamber pot idea is having an effect.
I've modifed the costs slightly, leaving reincarnation, raise dead, and resurrection alone. I've included true reincarnation (similar to MotW) at 12,500 and true ressurection at 17,500. Death is still expensive and painful (a permanent negative level until the XP debt is eliminated is not as easy as it sounds). Case in point, the 11th level druid (played by my wife) no longer gets her single 6th level spell due to the negative level.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I've been thinking about a way to make it seem like the bad guys really made a big mistake. The players do it all the time, right, so shouldn't the bad guys do the same? It would fit in my campaign and it sounds like it would help yours. If your players see that the bad guys are not so infallible, it would do a lot to restore their faith and believability in the world.
With the hive mind, we can really make the bad guys Bad, but can we put a plan together to make them seem real? Anyone have any ideas that we can use as a starting point?
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errant42
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/15/04 10:38 pm)
Reply
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Re: Chamber Pot Bibble
Ooh, I'll play.
So Lareth the Beautiful, once the golden apple of the eyes of Lolth, Zuggtmoy, and Iuz, finds out that he is -the- Champion of Elemental Evil. He is IT, more at the center of attention than he ever dreamed. This is his chance to show the world that he has the power. If anyone is the weak link, it's him.
I can see him trying to bring the PCs (who he knows from Nulb, right?) in to help eliminate his competition, or I can see him creating an internal power struggle that weakens the Fanes' defenses, and Varachan alerting the PCs to the opportunity.
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msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(1/16/04 8:14 am)
Reply
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Re: Chamber Pot Bibble
I2k: an 11th level druid with a Wisdom less than 22? Your wife should be ashamed of herself! 
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(1/16/04 8:26 am)
Reply
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Re: Chamber Pot Bibble
Quote:
With the hive mind, we can really make the bad guys Bad, but can we put a plan together to make them seem real? Anyone have any ideas that we can use as a starting point?
Personally I'm going to go the route of emphasizing the factionalism a bit more. I have already been doing that to a degree, but the players haven't really seen it yet, and some of the good advice above has convinced me to underline it a bit more.
Hedrack is angry at Thrommel as he turned the human guards the party captured and who witnessed his short fight with them into spawn (or at least they will be when they wake). Hedrack seems this as bad since he still feels T is a loose cannon and can't be trusted. Thus he has ordered Thrommel to stay in his room. But Thrommel will ignore that order, and in a fit of rebellion and pique will seek out the group. I'll probably have him stroll in when they are in the middle of another big fight, scaring them at first but they will see he has Dirge resting against his shoulder, and will just casually lean against the wall and watch the combat. It will slowly begin dawning on Thrommel that maybe these people can be his ticket out of the fanes, if he can just figure out how to play his hand correctly.
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Mr Kaze
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/16/04 5:36 pm)
Reply
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Re: Bad Guys and Personality
Quote:
With the hive mind, we can really make the bad guys Bad, but can we put a plan together to make them seem real? Anyone have any ideas that we can use as a starting point?
What are you talking about? Their backstory is "They are mad." Didn't you read the introduction? 
Honestly, I've given probably entirely too much thought to making the bad guys have an actual reason for doing (amoung other things). I've got a thread going on one side and my PCs just gave a whole lot of money to a very well informed Dearth Voodooer (renamed Tarren) who realizes that the end of the world is coming and doesn't want to be in a cold damp cave when it gets here -- so he told all as you can see by looking at the "Quest Notes" on www.bardicgrove.org/~kaze/darkstar.xml
Players are loving it and now feel that they're actually going somewhere as opposed to just milling about the CRM. (Me, I'm just mushing up a lot of anime and cultural references and re-mixing it into a cult born of a semi-dystopian quasi-medieval society...)
Clearly, this amount of change isn't for everybody, but maybe it will give you some ideas.
::Kaze
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Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(1/17/04 2:11 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Bad Guys and Personality
I'm not sure you understood my request. I'm looking for a way to show that the bad guys have made a big mistake. I want the players to say something on the order, "Oh, wow. Naquent just screwed up big time." That way, they'll realize that they are not the only ones to make mistakes, that the BBEG's are also flawed, that they actually might have a chance to succeed; in short, that the bad guys are 'real'.
I hate anime, so I'm certainly not doing any of that. My players never thought they were just milling about the CRM. They had motivations and the bad guys had motivations.
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