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Author
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Comment
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Krispieman
Ebon Hand Cultist
(1/16/04 8:15 am)
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Leveling to fast?
I've been playing RttToEe for a few months now with my group, going from one full sunday a month to 2 wednesday evenings a month. The PCs are at the point where they have to travel to Rastor to advance the plot. They've just killed Master Dunrat and Jaroo (they also killed Yundi's wolf which which led to an unfortunate encounter with Rufus and Burne and it all turned out rather bad for the PCs, but that's another story) so they're all done in Hommlet for now.
My main question is, at this point the PCs are allready level 6-7. Is this to high or not?
They have had their fare share of hard encounters when faced with multiple opponents, but it seems that everytime they only face 1 NPC or Monster, he's dead without much of a fight even if I give him max Hps and play him to the best of his abilities  (which is sometimes more than his Int score would allow)
The group consists of:
Dwarf Barbarian 2/Fighter5
Dwarf Cleric of Obad-Hai 7
Elf Rogue 6
Gnome Druid 7 (with a panther animal companion)
Half-elf Bard 7
Human Paladin 7
Should I upgrade the upcoming encounters so it's a little harder for them, or just see if they make it into the CRM safely, first?
Thanks for any advice you can give.
K-man 
Edited by: Krispieman at: 1/28/04 6:20 am
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msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(1/16/04 8:40 am)
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Re: Leveling to fast?
DANGER! DANGER WILL ROBINSON! 
Don't upgrade. Many of us have tried it, and paid the price. It leads to a viscious cycle of upgrading that will keep you incredibly busy for the next year or longer.
Don't upgrade, just let the party revel in their power for a bit. They'll get less experience for the next few sessions than they would if they were 5th level, and it will all work out in the end.
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Mr Kaze
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/16/04 10:29 am)
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Re: Leveling to fast?
First, Mr. Sherman is right -- once you start making fights tougher by adding levels of warrior or whatever, you're going to have to give out the XP for it which is, in turn going to make your PCs level faster. And so on.
According to the calculations I did (I wanted to skip Hommlet/Moathouse/Old Temple/Nulb if the PCs decided to play good) they can be ~level 7 when the get to the CRM. But that was only with 4 PCs. So you may be a bit over-powered.
I'd suggest this simple solution: No Threat, No Thought, No XP. That is, if the PCs survive an encounter that ended up not being at all threatening without having to use their wits to make it that way, they don't get experience for it.
I'd counterpoint this by noting that if they take on an enemy which, due to no clear negligence of their own, is too big for them, then don't be afraid to award a bit of bonus experience for it (as it may have not been too large if you'd been awarding proper experience for boiling anthills and Flame Striking starlings). Generally, the CR system will take care of this itself, though, so this shouldn't be happening too often.
Also, don't forget the wits awards. Current party serves a nasty whose guiding priciple is "Never do for yourself what somebody else is all too happy to do for you." Thus, when the party can mentally out-manuver somebody in such a way that they won't ever have to kill them, they get an amount of experience (between 50-100% depending on how much DXM was involved), with no further experience gained should they actually kill them later.
I've got a 4-pack of level 7s and we're pretty consistently above 1000xp per character per 3-hour session.
::Kaze (notes that there's more to role-playing than mindless slaughter.)
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deafdungeonmasterRIT
Deathmantle Cultist
(1/16/04 4:31 pm)
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hmm
Let them get cocky for a while..
then use Wheel of Time's Gholam to give them a beating of their lifetiem ;-)
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Ordos1
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/16/04 5:34 pm)
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Leveling to fast?
I've found the simplest solution to making a bit harder is to just boost hit points. It makes the encounter tougher out of sheer endurance of the enemies and you find the PCs saying, "OH COME ON! I'VE DONE 55 POINTS OF DAMAGE!! AND HE'S NOT DEAD". They get all puffy and complain that the module is too hard while you laugh.. 
The advantage of this is that you don't need to increase CR of any creature, just the HPs, so the party doesn't get more XPs. Thats how i keep the flavour of the module intact even with powerful PCs.
Hope this helps.
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arcane12
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/16/04 9:48 pm)
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Re: Leveling to fast?
what system are you using to calculate xp? For 6 character to be all 7th level by the end of Rastor is no mean feat if they start at 4th level. (did they start at 4th?)
Also the biggest difference this party will make when they hit the CRM is that they _may_ be able to take on a Enterance area without having to rest and come back 
Don't forget that the complexes in the CRM are used to attacks as they attack one another all the time, and have developed their ability to mobilise to thwart an incursion to a fine point. Use that. And boosting HP helps. And nasty tactics (intelligent creatures such as the vast quantity of clerics in this game know not to waste fort spells on guys in heavy armour, but use reflex spells instead, etc).
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smetzger
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/20/04 7:49 am)
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Re: Leveling to fast?
6th and 7th level is a bit high. But I wouldn't worry about it, they will have an easier time at the entrances (you can use the real Howler now) but thats not necessarily a bad thing. They will get less XP since they are higher level and it will eventually even out.
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 Siobharek 
Brother of Venom
(1/20/04 11:55 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Leveling to fast?
Speaking as someone who boosted the entire CRM: Don't. Once the challenges get a little easier, the amount of XP will slow and it'll balance out (resisted the temptation to say "level out").
Just let them enjoy the quick carnage. It'll get tougher later on.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
JRedGiant
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/21/04 10:32 am)
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Ordos' solution
What does the hivemind think about Ordos' solution of boosting the hp. I've been using this a bit myself to try to deal with the incredulous amounts of damage they can dish out. Has anyone else found any issues with it?
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Siobharek
Brother of Venom
(1/21/04 10:35 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Ordos' solution
Other than the meta-game remarks it spawns, the solution seems good. Haven't tried it myself, though.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Taxman66
Crimson Coil Cultist
(1/21/04 11:19 am)
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Re: Ordos' solution
You can boost without giving the extra XPs (i.e. purposely downgrading the XP) and this is in fact exactly that, albiet the boost is in only 1 aspect (hp).
Personally I'm in the let them revel in their power for a bit, reality will catch up with them. The players will catch on when the NPCs always seem to have max (or near max) hps and this will grate on their nerves. It's almost as bad as when the bad guy's equipment is unusable and worthless to the party (i.e. it is alignment unacceptable) and must be destroyed.
Once in a while this is ok. Constintly and it really starts to annoy players (it gives the impression that the DM is being unfair).
Taxman
"It takes an uncommon mind to think of these things, Hobbes." - Calvin
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Ztyx
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/23/04 5:21 am)
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Re: Ordos' solution
So yes, boosting hp to max is a viable solution, but should be saved to situations where they only meet one or maybe two hostiles - them having max hp might help to explain why they wander around all alone (and especially single creatures might need it to be allowed to strike back once).
Avoid using this on single creatures with notably higher CR than average party level though, that can get ugly pretty fast (TPK anyone?)
It is superbly valid on 'mincemeat foes' (CR<1) and actually on anything with <4HD (since it will only be ~+6hp anyways, which may or may not have an impact depending upon how the battle goes..
But basically I suggest going with the general consensus, keep most challenges as is and wait for them to fall back in xp/level gain. I'd suggest boosting the 'pivot points' though, the few battles where you feel that they should be afraid for their lives..
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Caedrel
Crimson Coil Cultist
(1/26/04 4:44 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Ordos' solution
My only additional observation would be to note that the lethality jumps significantly when the party starts to take on the Outer Fane, and you should be careful that the party doesn't get lulled into too much of a false sense of security just because the last few encounters in the CRM have been easy...
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Roland the red
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/28/04 7:40 am)
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Re: Ordos' solution
I have alwyas run monsters with either avg or max hp. Avg for mooks, Max for all else. Players get supplements all the time that increase their abilities (new feats, PrC's etc). The module remains static. Even if the players are the 'right' level, a few extra hps for the monsters helps balance things out. I have found it doesn't make that much of a difference, typically extending an encounter for 1-3 rounds. Once characters pass 5th level, it is often that a character overkills opponents. Boosting hp often means the character simply kills the opponent (Can you say 7d6 fireball to mooks at main gate? Even with max hp, most of the mooks are dead)
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Krispieman
Ebon Hand Cultist
(1/29/04 7:03 am)
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Example of Power
To give you all a slight example of exactly what my group can do, here's what happened yesterday:
As a final encounter for the session I threw in a Gray Render (CR . I thought that this would be a nice challenge. He laster 2 rounds. Not even 2 full rounds, he got 1 full attack and 1 AoO, nothing more.
The druid (wild shaped into a leopard) together with his (leopard) animal companion managed to do 64hps worth of damage.
True, the bard's haste spell helped a lot, but still. 125hps of damage within 2 rounds was kind of a shock to me.
I'm seriously considering redoing all of the NPC's and Monsters to 3.5 standard. I think that should increase their overall power without increasing their CR to much. I did it for the howler in the CRM and it turned out to be quite a bit more powerful than both Monte's version and the version in the Errata thread, while still being no more than CR 7 (unless I missed some CR upgrade I should have applied).
K-man
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