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Author
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Comment
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Knowe Remorse 
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/28/04 1:49 pm)
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How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
Im getting geared up to run this adventure, fully converted to 3.5 and what-not. However, I plan on running this without pulling any punches, with smart enemies (and knowing this group of players they will probably be less than stealthy about inquiries regarding the temple and will make mistakes that will prove very costly...deadly no less.)
All things said, I fully expect alot of my party to die in the course of this adventure. The problem is, in 3.5 resurrection spells got a significant cost increase (much more realistic in my mind) but it doesnt help the party's cause.
Raise Dead 5,000 gp
Resurrection 10,000 gp
True Resurrection 25,000 gp.
I hope to have a few resurrections just for role playing sake and a continuing core of players to enhance the story, and further the cause, etc. But given the costs of resing a player, this seems unlikely more than a couple times. Any thoughts or suggestions that some of you might have come up with from running this? I've stated already I will not be going easy on these guys, but im fearing that a couple of near TPK's or a couple really untimely deaths will mean players bringing in new characters rather than restoring them, due to finances.
Given the fact that later on in the campaign, Hedrack and the other bad boys in the temple would clearly see the party as a threat, and I wouldn't bother having Hedreck or the others in command giving many threats, a cult this evil would leave the party bodies as warnings, etc. Any ideas? I could lower the cost of res, but that trivializes the spell as well.
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of All Who Threaten it. Edited by: Knowe Remorse at: 1/28/04 1:53 pm
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(1/28/04 2:46 pm)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
1. Add a couple of strategic scrolls of raise dead to the early part of the adventure. For example, maybe Dunrat has one in case of emergencies.
2. Will they have a Druid or is there any way to encourage them to get one? Reincarnation is only 1000gp. They should be able to afford scrolls of this spell right off the bat.
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Mr Kaze
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/28/04 3:08 pm)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
Options options options...
1) Institute a karma system with Reincarnation -- if the player is playing the character in a wholly appropriate fashion according to what you've been led to believe about the character, then they can always come back as the same race that they left. Reincarnate still comes in at $1000, but is more-or-less the same as Raise Dead if you're not afraid of ending up as some race you really don't want. (This is what I did -- we can't even cast Raise Dead yet, let alone afford it.)
2) Sprinkle scrolls of "Raise Dead" here and there to ensure that key temple forces (none of whom are carrying $5K diamond dust) can be brought back in short order if necessary. Of course, these scrolls might also fall into the "wrong hands," but that's a chance the temple will have to take, right?
3) Convert a lot of the treasure to diamond dust. The CRM is a diamond mine, after all. Spellcasters do know that diamond dust is required for Restoration, Raise Dead, Stoneskin and all kinds of spells. It's not like it's too terribly uncommon...
My small group is also playing with "Death = XP Penalty (750 * CL)" instead of "Death = Level Loss and XP Penalty" such that it won't be more difficult for them to defeat an enemy the second time around than it was the first time when they got freakin' killed. This is probably more valuable for smaller groups where the loss of a single CL is harder for the group to take than for larger groups, so YMMV.
HiH,
::Kaze (imagines a 12th level fighter dying and being raised only to realize that he's short an ability point and two feats -- Egad!)
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smetzger
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/28/04 4:48 pm)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
Here is what I have done:
1) Start characters out with 32 pt buy, 5th level with gear appropriate for 4th level characters.
2) Give out Hero points. Everyone gets one Hero point to begin with and an additional one for every altar destroyed. The Hero point can be used to turn a failed save into an automatic success, used to automatically stabilize, used to stabilize at -10 when a hit would take the character from +hp to death.
3) Do not use the death from massive damage rules.
I haven't pulled any punches(I even used the full Howler) and no one has died yet (Their in the middle of their 3rd foray into the Outer Fane).
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 Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(1/29/04 5:23 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
There's a thread on Level Loss Penalty for Death in the DM's Only forum. I've switched to that format for death in the middle of the CRM. It is far more suitable for real play than the level loss method. The debt is currently set at 500XP * Current Level.
No offense to smetzger, but I believe that everything that happens to good guys can happen to bad guys and vice versa, so if you give out Hero Points, IMO you should also give out Villain Points. By now, I'd think Hedrack would have racked up quite a few.
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Andorax
Brother of Venom
(1/29/04 9:27 am)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
Alas, I did exactly the opposite...nasty me, I had Fachish actually USE the scroll of Raise Dead that he carries (he LPAed an Invisible Stalker to bring back Kellial's corpse).
Honestly, there's a viable alternative to raise dead that nobody seems to have mentioned yet here...replacement PCs. Let the dead be honored for their contribution and then...remain dead. There's nothing wrong with introducing new characters along the way.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(1/29/04 10:42 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
"There's nothing wrong with introducing new characters along the way."
There is if the dead PC's treasure remains with the party. It can seriously unbalance the campaign.
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Knowe Remorse
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/29/04 11:20 am)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
I did the character points thing a while ago, really surprised the party when the main villain used his as well. Stopped using the points after that. Thanks for the suggestions, will stick with -500 xp per level, now I just need to figure a way to make the cost seem realistic for what they can barely afford.
Im thinking about making Raise dead 2500 or 3000 and Resurrection 5000.. True Res will be outta their league for a long time coming anyway.
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of All Who Threaten it. |
DarkHero69
Ebon Hand Cultist
(1/29/04 12:24 pm)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
The 500Xp and reincarnation were good points. I'm going to use them...
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arcane12
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/29/04 12:31 pm)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
Just for another perspective here's how I handle it: (for RttToEE)
Raise XP pentaly: 500/level
New character: 20% XP loss
Now the way this works out (if you do some math) is it is more beneficial to make a new character at lower levels (below 5th) rather than be raised. Once you hit that magic number (12,500 xp) it becomes more beneficial to raise rather than make a new character.
Now here's the reasoning behind this choice:
At low levels (1-5) the characters can't really afford 5K to raise. But also the attachment to the character is not as high as say 10th level (if starting at 1st to 3rd). They may be able to pitch in for a reincarnate at about 5th, and at higher levels (9+) it isn't that huge an issue to pay 5K to raise someone (it still hurts, but the choice is there).
This also means that at higher levels the group is disuaded from bringing in new characters and looting their old dead bodies getting a big haul, making death a benefit! It doesn't make much sense though that a new 10th level character would start with 1K of gear either. So a subtle discouragement, plus finding ways to 'trim' the excess gear works well.
I must admit in 3.5 some things were changed too much (making some spells and abilities go from overpowered to vastly underpowered) but the new prices on raise dead put it back in the hands of the powerful. (at 500gp 1st level adventurers could usually pitch in and raise someone! So a moderately wealth merchant could also purchase this divine gift!)
That's my 2c anyway (and with the current NZ$ that would be about 1c US :P )
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Knowe Remorse
Tolling Bell Cultist
(1/30/04 1:19 am)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
The easy way to stop making character death a way to get equipment, is I have always had the new character come in with standard equipment only, regardless of how high level...
So the party has to sell his old stuff or whatever to buy equipment for the new guy, it evens itself out either way.
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of All Who Threaten it. |
Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(1/30/04 6:50 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
In that case, you suffer from the opposite effect if the body is also lost, which might be frequent in this module. Anyway, if it doesn't happen too often, it's okay. Personally, I think the best answer is for the party to 'donate' the PC's items to his church or return them to his family. The players should realize the unbalancing aspect of it and work with you if they want to bring in respectable new characters.
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msherman
Crimson Coil Cultist
(1/30/04 7:04 am)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
Yeah, I'm with I2k. We haven't yet had a dead character replaced with a new one in my game, but if it happens I'll let the party know OOC that I'll be fudging things to "balance" the treasure -- if they decide to keep most of the dead guy's gear, they'll just happen to run into more gear-destroying effects. If they donate it (or it's lost in the death), they won't. Karma will carry the day.
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Andorax
Brother of Venom
(1/30/04 7:17 am)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
Quote:
"There's nothing wrong with introducing new characters along the way."
There is if the dead PC's treasure remains with the party. It can seriously unbalance the campaign.
If the corpse is recoverable, this can *sometimes* pose a problem...although it will often be the case that much of this treasure is portable wealth, not usuable items (that person had them for a reason). Some of that wealth came from the outside, but others of it were a direct result of their efforts so far.
If it gets out of hand, a starting character can always be introduced under-equipped on a case-by-case basis (rather than a blanket rule). Finding a new PC as a sacrificial victim, for example, and rescuing that individual completely equipmentless forces the party to "share it around" a bit in order to have an effective ally.
Wills, and the desire that some items be returned to home and family, can also mitigate this if that's the style of the group.
It's not perfect, but it is a potential method of dealing, and it never really posed a problem IMC, where we had many fatalities and replacement PCs.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(1/31/04 12:49 am)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
Yep, I was actually going to say what Andorax said regarding dealing with the extra treasure. In fact, this is such a potentially unbalancing issue that I told my players that if they do keep the treasure the next player will be brought in underequipped. That seemed to put them off that idea and there were no real complaints.
A couple of other things I wanted to say as well.
I was previously very concerned about this issue. Here's a thread I started and a spell I designed to help address it:
zans.clanplaid.net/page21/26/2680.html
Also, I don't believe a critical issue has been mentioned at all so far (maybe I missed it though). With the new 3.5 experience point award system (adapted from the FRCS) anyone who falls behind is going to get an automatic boost to catch up. And if you look at the table, you'll notice that a person one level behind gets significantly more experience. This particularly kicks in for high CR encounters, but also has an impact in low CR encounters for which the higher level people may get 0 experience, but for which the laggards are still picking up 300xp x (number of enemies) for easily dispatching a bunch of fodder.
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arcane12
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/1/04 1:49 pm)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
Wow, I really didn't think the XP thing was a critical issue, I actually quite like it. As Infiniti2000 said they player should try to work with you to balance things out (I know mine do, and I expect most to - as choosing you own path feels better than DM forcing the issue).
Anyway, when a party gets to higher levels they should be raising most party deaths as they can afford it. If they party refuses to raise the character (they players want to keep his gear) then it would be perfectly acceptable to make the new character come in with no gear - even buck naked!  Then they will know if they die thanks to their greed they will get the same treatment.
Of course hopefully the players are nice enough to work with you, rather than against you, but sometimes things can't be helped.
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lightnng
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/1/04 4:58 pm)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
I do it the old-fashioned way... balance it as it comes along.
What does it mean? It means I don't rely on the rules for pricing. Raise dead was plenty expensive at 500GP a pop when they party was at 4th and 5th levels and had three die in the showdown at the mill in Hommlet. So I made it 500GP, as a "special favor" from Y'Day (who can cast three of them per day if she prepares) for gratitude.
Later they had someone killed at the temple site (by the hobs); Y'Day was no longer as thankful, but she "still liked them" so it cost them 800GP.
When later they visited Verbobonc and were looking for raise dead scrolls, I let them find two for sale at just over 1600GP a piece. That was just enough to make them treasure them.
Now two more have died in the mines, and next session when they try to raise them, it will likely cost around 2500GP... as the high cleric in a particular church in Verbobonc is getting kinda tired with dealing with these people, but he also sees the, err, "contributions" value of providing these services and is trying to figure out how much he can really charge.
They dont have access to ressurection yet, but its less of an issue IMC since characters dont lose levels when they die (they lose XP and incur an XP debt instead). Of course, they would certainly like to be able to avoid the XP loss as well, but right now they feel ressurection would likely be out of their reach (which is exactly how I want them to feel).
In essence, I use these spells as a way to control the amount of treasure my party has - if I feel they need a boost, and they happen to need a raising, it tends to cost less; if they have too much, it tends to cost more. I guess I do it well enough (i.e. with solid in-game reasoning and RP) that they havent caught on to the scheme.
Edited by: lightnng at: 2/1/04 5:00 pm
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Angelalex242
Crimson Coil Cultist
(2/2/04 1:10 am)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
It depends on alignment.
The Chaotic Neutral Rogue certainly isn't gonna give a damn what's in a character's will.
Unless, of course, the Paladin is there threatening to shove his sword up the Rogue's hindquarters if he doesn't obey that will.
Alternatively...
If you have a lot of deaths, and you're just taking the treasure from old PCs and passing it on to new fully equipped PCs...well, one wonders how often you can kill and strip old PCs till your players abruptly stop being challenged.
Heaven's wish to destroy all minds! Holy Explosion! |
Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(2/2/04 2:40 am)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
Well they better damn well find an in-character reason not to strip the body, or they will be screwing their buddy whose next PC will show up naked.
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Roland the red
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/4/04 9:17 am)
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Re: How should I handle death in the 3.5 campaign
I allow my players to strip the body and bring in a new Character fully loaded with one caveat: I have the right to revoke this priveledge at any time.
I use the new Raise Dead et. al. pricing scheme, and often the old equipment is used to finance the purchase of these things.
The module is under-equipped, especially if the players aren't as interested in the masterwork weapon selling business. So the bonust equipment helps keep them up to par.
I do periodic reviews of wealth, and so far its remained reasonably balanced.
I have stipulated that players should have a new character ready to go, and must help me to introduce this character in some way PRIOR to death. Otherwise, they get a character I have prepared and introduced (such as the various prisoners within the temple and some residents of Rastor). In this way, characters are outfitted in a generic manner and not given equipment needed NOW. All new characters are subject to my apporval and changes. Period.
I am fortunate to have a group who understands balance and would willingly bury a character with his gear...but I find that unreasonable and unbeleivable, and they have agreed to not abuse the magic item creating system.
In any event, No single item can be more than the value of a magic sword a character is 'expected' to have at that character level (1-3rd 2000gp, 4-6 8000gp, etc.)
It works for us.
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(2/4/04 4:29 pm)
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err....
Quote:
I am fortunate to have a group who understands balance and would willingly bury a character with his gear...but I find that unreasonable and unbeleivable, and they have agreed to not abuse the magic item creating system.
I think most of us unreasonable and belief-stretching DMs who force their players into the masterwork weapon selling business are having the dead PCs valuables sent to their church, their family members, and other places. Not buried with them.
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