Everybody Got Away... (and an OOC Player)

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fjeTheNarrator Ebon Hand Cultist (2/1/04 11:17 pm) Reply	Everybody Got Away... (and an OOC Player) I have a few problems ... My group is exceedingly careful. Every chance they get, they retreat, rest up, prepare spells in response to enemy troops they've seen, and then move back in ... This, of course, gives the enemy equal time to prepare themselves for any upcoming problems. At the Moathouse they killed Utreshimon, then moved to the tower to rest up. In the night Chen escaped and the Gnolls fortified the main room. In the upcoming fight, I played Garrick intelligently, but when it was obvious his forces were overmatched, I deemed he would book. (The wizard tore through the gnolls with Flaming Sphere and the raging barbarian helped a bit.) Through judicial use of cover, concealment, and a successful mix of range/clerical/arcane/melee characters (most multiclassed and multi-role) they deal with combats surprisingly efficiently. Garrick and Chen escaped ... they moved through the dungeon, cleared most things, and ended the evening with a combat between Geynor/Yssalnash and a Ghast, then retreated, leaving a dead Geynor and a dying Yssalnash. For flavor I changed the Grell to four CR 1 noncoporeal pseudopodal creatures (I'm upping the Cthuhluesque nature of the campaign a bit) that wouldn't bother Festrath, and decided he made his way to the top of the lift and found the dying Yssalnsh, stabilizing him but not healing him. They fought the monsters on the lift (fun combat) and then faced down Festrath and a ghoulish Geynor Ton. Festrath used Death Knell on the comatose Yssalnsh and the next round went to use Command on the "most powerful"-looking member of the party, the huge half-orc barbarian with the greatsword. Unfortunately, he's a Barb1/Clr3 of Kord and has a good Will save and shrugged it off. Next round the Kordite casts Silence and FESTRATH fails his Will save ... nullified. Fest used his pot of Fly and tried to escape, but 4 arrows and a nasty critical from the barb/clr's Mighty Longbow later he's so much slowly-sinking meat. The ghoul was quickly dispatched a moment later. No sweat. Good that they didn't let him get away. Big "end scene" for the Moathouse took all of three rounds. Reading Geynor Ton's journal they discover Chatrilon is not all he seems ... one of the guys has been playing ANOTHER RttToEE game (Although I asked him not to) and has a totally OOC grudge against Chat since he backstabbed and killed their druid in that game ... The rest of the players, at least, aren't prone to blinding moments of OOC Knowledge and decide that the note owes Chat at least an interrogation. Firt thing they do upon returning to Hommlet is go gunning for Chat (even though they have another lead to the Mill). They decide to spread out, placing two PCs outside the Welcome Wench and three charge in, obviously looking for somebody. Since Chen made it back to town, Chat figures his cover is blown and they're looking for him and runs up the stairs ... using the last part of his round to use his Wand of Invis. The Fighter and Barb charge after ... and find an empty upper hall. So they start slowly edging along, groping for Chat. After three rounds I decide he's had more than ample time to study one of them and uses his sneak attack (paralysis) and takes down the Fighter, then runs and ... jumps out the window. (It was 3 on 1, he's not especially suicidal.) The Rog/Ftr is waiting out back and moves to engage him. The Barb jumps out the window and lands on his face. Chat faces down the Rog/Ftr for a round, but a crit turns it bad, so he casts Obscuring Mist as the other PCs begin to converge ... he runs and doubles back in the mist (everybody missed him) and slips away through the crowd of people who have gathered wondering what all the yelling, crashing, and mist-making is about. (Honestly, alot of that was DM rule. I was a bit annoyed that the one player was using OOC knowledge in the game, and he "wanted Chat" so when they bungled some rolls, I deemed he escaped in the confusion of falling barbarians and fighters and blind groping.) Instead of heading after him, the OOC Player argues loud and long that Elmo and the guard should be notified of Chatrilon and the cult's presence in town: "He's probably gone to the mill, we've got them now! We have to get Elmo and the guard." So I figure out how long that will take. They go find Elmo, round up some Badgers and head over to the mill. They're greeted by Sart and the mill workers, who openly admit that some friends of the miller were staying there on the low-down, but that they'd left a good 15 minutes earlier in a bit of a rush. Here OOC decides to cast Detect Magic and start looking "at everybody" ... I know what he's looking for (Sart/Vacra) and rule that since he's there with Elmo, Elmo would want to know what and why he's casting. He responds: "I want to make sure everybody is what they seem." Just about then Sart latches on to Elmo in friendly fashion and offers to show him the cellar "In the interest of total honesty in our dealing with the law, Master Elmo..." In the round he has to look, I rule that he knows there is magic in that general area, but it's mostly magic from Elmo's gear. Then he wants to "scan the area" with Detect Magic ... I tell him he finds nothing. "Nothing, say, in the trees?" No. Dunrat took it with him when he ran, knowing the gig was up. In the cellar they found the remains of six bedrolls and the chest, which I left "because they couldn't carry something that heavy leaving in a hurry" ... really I left the chest so the other PCs could have the gold as a reward and they'd have the note to link everything to Rastor. At this point, none of the group knows about Jaroo (although Mr. OOC mentioned something about a bear when the group was trying to decide what temple to hit up for a Remove Disease). The plan as we ended this session was to return to the Moathouse and wait for the cart for a day and then move up the road to Rastor looking for it. This leaves the ENTIRE cult in Hommlet free and aware that a mildly powerful group of individuals is actively looking for them with murder in their eye. Not only that, Chatrilon and Garrick have both had physical interaction with the group and know what they look like and a good deal of what they're capable of. They have no clue that Maridosen or Jaroo are cult members (there was mention of a "deep cover spy" in the handout Dunrat note I gave them, but their assumption was this refers to the now much-hated Chatrilon). Their only real contacts in the town are Burne/Rufus and Spugnoir ... they don't care much for Burne because of RP interaction (he rather firmly put them in their place) and Elmo is mildly suspicious of them since the Wizard keeps casting spells on things for no apparent reason and laying accusations about without much in the way of proof (other than some robes, holy symbols, and notes). They haven't bothered to see if any of the more senior clerical staff in town know what the Obex is (the two clerics are multiclass, a Brb/Clr of Kord and a Rog/Clr of Olidammara, neither of whom have temples in Hommlet) and their current assumption is that the Elder Elemental Eye has "something to do with that Temple Of Elemental Evil" but, likewise, they haven't really asked anybody that would know. As things stand, Burne and Rufus are mildly interested, but feel that the "cult" is just that, some troublemakers mucking about with some fragments of power from the Temple ... and that most of that was handled when the PCs ransacked the Moathouse and put the kebosh on what was going on there. They tossed a little gold the PCs way in way of thanks (the group was shopped out from Verbobonc as a favor a friend owed by Burne and Rufus, to find the missing Spugnoir) and are ready to be done with it all. This leaves me basically rewriting what's going to go on in Hommlet. We have a great number of cultists still running around there that I have no idea what to do with. Not to mention Garrick (who they are unreasonably scared of, and don't want to spend the night in the wilderness with "that damned gnoll" out there somewhere). There's also the growing problem of OOC Guy. He had said he was playing in another Return campaign that had just stared, but that he wanted to play in the one I was running "more". I told him it would be best if he dropped out of the other game. After the first game he said: "Oh, yea, alot of this is exactly the same." I figured that-was-that. Apparently not, he's trying to play both games simultaniously. Ordinarily he's a good player and fun to game with, but he's just not handling this OOC information AT ALL well. The other Players were about to start throwing dice at him. The grudge against Chatrilon (leading them to hunt him out before the others in the mill) was bad enough. Then I discovered that he wanted to find Elmo and the guard because "those guys in the mill nearly wiped us out, last time". The thing with Sart and the Stalwart Eye were just the icing on the cake. He keeps making decisions partially or wholley motivated by OOC information and suggesting them to the party in such a hamhanded manner that it ruins what's coming up for the others. I've never had to ask a player to leave a game before, but I think I'll have to for this guy. Sure, this run-through is different (I change things and their actions are different from the other group) but I can't have him detailing every monster they're going to face with his "suspiciously exact" plans (suggesting spells to the Clerics and the whole bit). It's just lessening the fun for everybody involved (and, honestly, bungling the group's ability to DEAL with the problems, as opposed to not have hard fights facing them, by delaying and begging them to take different actions). Any good ideas for what I should do with all these loose-end cultists I have running around? --fje
Knowe Remorse Tolling Bell Cultist (2/2/04 1:27 am) Reply	Re: Everybody Got Away... (and an OOC Player) First suggestion: Reviewing this players antics, I would kick him out. If it were a player that hadn't made such stupid outbursts and was trying to play in character but was not doing well, I would take the player aside, and ask him if he feels he can stop any OOC and his character using any knowledge from the previous campaign. If he says he can't, he has to leave. Second: If the player says he can restrain himself, I would suggest you insist he not contribute any initial information on decisions (sad but its too hard not to metagame with so much for-knowledge). Personally, I would ask the player to leave. There is way too much of a story that this player can effectively forsee, and knowingly or unknowingly alter the course of action for the party that a player with no knowledge could do. One option: have the character take a vow of silence, where he cannot speak.... literally. Thats the only way i would allow the player to play, it still wouldnt stop his forknowledge, but it would make it much more difficult to embark that knowledge upon the rest of the party without it being fairly obvious. Up to you, but given your current player, it is absolutely safest if he leaves, given the fact that he's been playing and suggesting stuff with knowledge that his character wouldnt have. All he is going to do, is ruin the story for the rest of the players, and waste hours and hours of time spent preparing this module, for you. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of All Who Threaten it. Edited by: Knowe Remorse at: 2/2/04 1:34 am
Cordo Crowfoot Deathmantle Cultist (2/2/04 4:08 am) Reply	Re: Everybody Got Away... (and an OOC Player) I agree and 100% agree with you that you have the right to be angry about his actions. It's so blatant. I would either: 1) Kick him out immediately 2) If he is a close friend in real life or there is some other reason you don't want to kick him out immediately, you definitely need to give him a warning that the conditions for staying in your game are: a) He leave the other game immediately b) He never, ever, mentions something that you have one iota of reason to believe is motivated by his OOC knowledge. But really, if you can you should kick him out, this is the kind of player who will read the adventure in any case, and ruin the campaign for everyone. As for the cultists, I would recommend having them set an ambush for the PCs. Perhaps using disguise self to appear as Elmo (and the mind blank ring if one of them is a paladin). "I found one of them cultists you may have been telling me about dead over in them woods. Want to take a look before I get rid of the corpse?"
Infiniti2000 Brother of Venom (2/2/04 6:57 am) Reply ezSupporter	OOC Info I absolutely agree that the player must leave. He has already shown that not only can he separate OOC knowledge, he is more than willing to ruin it for you and the rest of the group. You do not want the ending ruined after 2 years of gaming. Imagine the pain and agony your group will suffer after all that time just to have this one player ruin it. On second thought, I would have Chat assassinate his character and THEN kick him out.
Cordo Crowfoot Deathmantle Cultist (2/2/04 7:54 am) Reply	Re: OOC Info *Quote:* On second thought, I would have Chat assassinate his character and THEN kick him out.
fjeTheNarrator Ebon Hand Cultist (2/2/04 12:26 pm) Reply	Re: OOC Info Chatrilon has now become Public Enemy #1, after taking down the party mainline fighter without difficulty (well, really, the fighter made a bad Fort save). After a conference with all of the players (Other than Mr. OOC), they all rather like OOC and his playing is usually great so most of them would rather I didn't boot him from the game. They are annoyed with his use of OOC information on a regular basis and want me to talk with him about it, but would rather I didn't kick him out entirely. I'm going to sit him down and have a chat with him about it, and see if the activity continues again next session. If there's not some major improvement, I'm going to have to eliminate him from the game. As far as the cult goes ... I have a few ideas. I know the group from the mill has moved over to the Grove for the day and will move out overnight. Chatrilon's cover is nominally blown, but Maridosen and Jaroo are safe. Master Dunrat's job is really more or less over, but with the Moathouse sacked he needs to get the items there back from the PCs (the items from the blanket in Gren's room, they left the statue in the well room). Maridosen is going to quit the WW, however, and skip out with the rest in the night ... Now, the whole "group" of enemies is FAR too powerful for this group of characters. They're just under 5th, so 5 4th level PCs (possibly soon to be 4 4th level PCs). I need to figure out some reason for them splitting up. I would use Chatrilon for a lure/ambush encounter, but I think I'm going to use him as bait more than once (they're so infuriated with him they'll make mistakes trying to get to him) ... y'know, have him show up in Verbobonc and disappear around a corner up the street ... let them chase him for a while. Have him show up in Rastor at the Orc tribal encampment eating with the cheif as a friend, where they can't touch him, etc etc. I'm not exactly sure what to do with Maridosen or Gren, however ... I guess they could just pass into the annals of time or whatever, but ... I figure if the PCs rest over the course of the evening and then head to the moathouse to lie in wait for the wagon, the Hommlet Clerics and Garrick could have gotten there earlier (traveling at night) and worked to bring the 4-sided Tharizdun statue up to the surface ... I'd like to run the Follow-me Elmo trap on them, though ... not sure where. I've also contemplated having Garrick return to the Temple of All-Consumption in failure and have Thrommel turn him into a Vampire Gnoll Ranger as punishment/reward for his ineptitude ... aught to be a fun encounter, there, somewhere on the road. --fje
Cordo Crowfoot Deathmantle Cultist (2/2/04 4:58 pm) Reply	hmmm... Just be sure that you make it 100% clear to the player that if he doesn't stop his evil ways you are kicking him out. Bring up specific examples of when he used OOC knowledge, and tell him why you think this is wrong (it hurts the enjoyment of the rest of the group, including you as DM). This isn't a computer game with accompanying "walkthrough" provided.
Caedrel Crimson Coil Cultist (2/2/04 6:13 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Meet his other DM In your discussion with the OOC friend, see if you can find out who the DM of his other game is... even if your chat with him resolves things for the better, I'd say it's critically important for you and the other DM to stay in touch with where your respective groups are. If your group starts getting ahead of the other one, your mutual player's OOC knowledge is going to start affecting the other DM's game too. I actually think that it might not be a bad idea for the villains NOT to split up... they could set up the ambush but, confident in their overwhelming force, they might not attack the PCs straight away. Instead, Master Dunrat might reveal himself, gloating in the power of life and death he holds over the PCs, maybe even explaining gleefully how their slowness of wit and action has allowed him to lay this trap for them. He would rather they hand over the items to him peaceably, and he would let them "go their way". He doesn't really want to draw attention to the cult, after all. You'd need to be very clear that the PCs are all going to die if they try to take on the full might of the cultists at this particular point in time, so Dunrat has to be convincing. If they hand over the items, great - once Dunrat gets them, he and some key goons can ride off and leave his other goons to deal with the heroes "as they see fit", and remaining villains should be a more survivable encounter for the PCs. We've got a problem if the group decides not to hand the items over - the resulting battle is probably going to go poorly for them, but Master Dunrat may not really want them dead: he'd probably even be willing to heal them up from negative hp just to gloat some more and torture them a little. Elmo and the badgers or a couple of the other could show up at this point, and the cultists may choose to flee rather than linger and administer the coup de graces... and if the cavalry arrives in time, the villains might not have the time to gather ALL of the PCs' precious gear... I know, it feels like a bit of a deux ex machina in this last part, but I'm thinking on the fly here Edited by: Caedrel at: 2/2/04 6:16 pm
Cordo Crowfoot Deathmantle Cultist (2/2/04 8:17 pm) Reply	hmm Actually I would make positively sure he didn't play in the other game. I think that should be non-negotiable and your players should be able to understand that. It also seems like you may be a little overconcerned with hurting the PCs. I'm refering to the enervation assassination (why do that and not just kill him?) and your concern with the Clerics overwhelming them. At this point, for screwing up so bad they deserve an extremely challenging encounter. IMO, if you stay too overprotective the PCs will I'd make the ambush at least EL 8. Or maybe EL 7 and have Dunrat (or a high dex character) open up the ambush with the bead of force. That's what I did against my fourth levellers and they all survived.
Narben Ebon Hand Cultist (2/3/04 2:26 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: hmm I would have had Chat make a death attack on Mr OOC. Give him a real reason to hate him in this game
Infiniti2000 Brother of Venom (2/3/04 7:02 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: hmm Cordo, care to finish that sentence?
Killiak Deathmantle Cultist (2/3/04 12:14 pm) Reply	Re: hmm Actually, that was the whole sentence What he meant was, if the DM is overprotective of the characters (allowing them to retreat at times), then the players will remain overprotective and carefull as well.
Mr Kaze Tolling Bell Cultist (2/3/04 2:16 pm) Reply	Two-Timing Gamers! I'm a bit surprised this thread hasn't seen more activity given the quantity of DMs who have run this campaign twice. I've got 4 players, 3 of whom are back for a second run with 4th player DMing it for his Monday group. If I were running it straight up, they wouldn't be able to not metagame (and they'd probably be bored to tears, too). What I'm doing to combat both metagaming and raw boredom simultaneously is I'm changing anything that I have time to -- nothing is sacred! (See the "Mr Kaze's Alterations" thread for some of the havoc I'm unleashing on this poor adventure that most people love so much. For example, Monster Manual II has some good creatures to bring in...) You'll probably want to do nothing so extreme, but do try to pay attention and be ready to confuse/confound the OOC guy. If you hear him prepping inappropriately, switch out the encounter for something that's about as challenging but requires different tactics. Move the creatures. Move the secret doors. Move the passwords. Move the treasures. Put a curse on some of the treasure. Change a dragon's color. Go wild with Fiendish, Half-Fiend, Half-Elemental and Half-Dragon templates. Heck with the templates, have the temple run some fiendish breeding experiments! It's fun (for the DM, anyway)! Short of it is that players shouldn't know the adventure even if they've read it cover to cover. It's what makes your game special and different from everybody else's. And when somebody tries to play your game as if it's somebody else's, they'll suffer accordingly and either respect your game for being bold and different or hate your game because they were only interested in winning. I'm also very much in favor of using progressively ill omens any time the DM is afraid that the party is moving too slow to keep up adequate dramatic tension. Clue them in to clear and present danger and nudge them along appropriately -- it keeps the story lively. Others may disagree with me on this point, but you're saying "party too cautious" and something like bad-and-forboding dreams are a nice conventional way to keep the PCs moving forward. Good luck, ::Kaze (If none of this works, encourage him to get the leadership feat and then give him a temple doppelganger assassin as a "cohort," sent by Hedrack after divining "Who's the leader of the club that's got the make on you and me?")
Caedrel Crimson Coil Cultist (2/3/04 6:22 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: "If you are overprotective, the players will...&quo Sorry, I have to disagree with Killiak here - I don't think an overprotective DM leads to overprotective and careful players. In fact, I suspect it's the opposite - if things are too easy, the players get complacent and don't think through all of the possibilities, which affects their expectations and therefore makes any subsequent difficulties that much nastier. If the encounters are hard and tough and fierce, that's when the group has to be careful - otherwise, they'll overstretch their resources and come to grief. There was a recent thread on almost exactly this topic that I can't find at the moment - the players felt a much greater need for caution because they knew that reinforcements were going to arrive at wherever they struck in the Outer Fane in very short order... Mr Kaze's solution of changing things is the only watertight one - it's also the only solution that will negate any cheating if you should have the misfortune to have that in your group. Unfortunately, it's also an awful lot of work for the DM, and also means you have to go it alone a lot more than if you were working off the same page as the other DMs in, say, this forum here So unless you have this sort of time to invest, I'd say your best bet is that discussion you're planning on having with your friend... Caedrel, who loves the suggestion to swap out the flesh golems for a (non-)rogue eidolon...
fjeTheNarrator Ebon Hand Cultist (2/3/04 7:35 pm) Reply	Re: Two-Timing Gamers! Well, for some odd reason everybody has me feeling defensive that I haven't slaughtered enough PCs to be a REAL RttToEE DM. In the end, it was my decision not to use Chat's death ability. They didn't realize he was an assassin and killing a PC to show them that wasn't really going to add anything to the session and would just bog things down with generating another PC. They were just about as upset that he dropped (and poisoned) the fighter and got away. They know he's a deadly assasin, now, and it should be more fun playing Chat and Mouse with them. I'm definately changing things around on them. I made Utreshimon a black dragon and hid him in the moat. When they talked to Ol' Del in the woods they BELIEVED him (they know RttToEE is a "hard" campaign and that a dragon wouldn't be out of the ordinary) ... so when they saw something green moving toward them out of the swamp they all went diving for cover from "The Dragon" ... then they laughed when they realized it was a giant frog ... And stopped laughing when it pulled the barbarian ten feet through the water and started chewing on his head. Utresh slipped up behind them in the courtyard. Plus replacing the Grell and a few other things ... their actions neccessitate my constant moving and redeploying of the enemy forces, so even if they read the module, nothing is in "the same place" ... I think even Mr. OOC is usually surprised, so the other DM must be having things stay pretty static. Because of his comment about the bear, and the fact that they have no idea about Jaroo and the Doppleganger, I think I'm just going to change that around ... put the doppleganger somewhere else. They didn't track the temple party to any particular place in Hommlet, so they could be staying just about anywhere before sneaking out in the night. I'm not going to be forced into changing every encounter, however. It's fine if HIS fun is "ruined" by playing everything twice ... I'm just not going to let him ruin it for everybody else with OOC comments. Even after the fact (when I've obviously changed something, after the encounter he'll usually tell the table "how it went in the other game" ... which really, to me, breaks verisimilitude. The whole thing feels like "somebody else's game" instead of my own.) I'm going to give him the one chance, though. Even before him, however, I was planning to put a few changes into play ... the game is already very Call of Cthulhu as it is, but I'm going to definately up the Lovecraftian elements of the game as often as I can. At least change the descriptions of a few monsters, replace a few with more sinister and tentacular beasties, etc. I'm certainly not afraid of killing a few PCs in the ambush, I'm just afraid that if they encountered EVERYTHING at the same time at the moathouse the resultant 11 EL encounter would slaughter them outright. Remembember, the wagon and it's guards and the grick will be arriving around the same time ... I would hope that they wouldn't try to fight, but at the same time, I don't want to create a position so obviously deus ex that it ruins the fun of the game. I suppose having Dunrat barter for the items would be a good idea. I'm just not sure that he could leave a strong enough contingent of men behind to "deal" with the problem ... he's CR 6 and that adds alot to the EL ... I think I'll draw up a new NPC of CR 4-5 and perhaps run the Confrontation At The Moathouse scenario. Leave behind Chenashi, Garrick, Toridan, a few (4) Gnolls, the grick ... Have Maridosen stay behind to "have a little fun" ... that's EL 7.4. Another CR 5 NPC would make it EL 8.5 ... So far they've done well against mid-CR encounters owing to the weak melee abilities of most of them (or being able to focus on one enemy like Big U). All of those enemies are frontline combat units 'cept for Chenashi. I could create another mid-level cleric of Tharizdun, I suppose, or an arcane caster. I'm not sure about the XP, though ... will injecting 6 new enemies unduly give them more XP? (grick, 4 gnolls, new NPC) They're about 750xp from making level. So, this'll be a nice "final" encounter for the chapter, letting them make 5th level before moving on to Rastor and the CRM. --fje
Killiak Deathmantle Cultist (2/4/04 1:29 am) Reply	Re: Two-Timing Gamers! Which is a perfectly fine level for any attempt at the gates
Cordo Crowfoot Deathmantle Cultist (2/4/04 6:20 am) Reply	5th is ideal Actually, 5th is ideal for the gates. 4th is probably too low. Mine were 6th because they did all of the hobgoblin temple and Nulb.
fjeTheNarrator Ebon Hand Cultist (2/5/04 5:20 pm) Reply	Moathouse Battle Make-up Well I'm definately going to ambush the PCs as they lie in wait to ambush the cart from Tal Chammish. I'll have the whole Hommlet crew show up ... Master Dunrat (CR 6) Grune (1) Chenashi (2) Torridan (2) Vacra (3) Maridosen (Quit the Welcome Wench) (3) Chatrilon (Escaped the PCs) (6) Gren (Escaped the Moat House) (2) Garrick (Escaped the Moat House) (2) Which is a very formidable force on its own. Then the wagon shows up with A Grick (3) Four Gnoll guards (1 apiece) and Aaris, the Grick's keeper, an Azer Barbarian from the Fire Temple ... (CR 5.5) I contemplated something from the Earth temple (the Grick seems an earth creature) but I couldn't find a suitably interesting creature and I didn't want to go with Yet Another Trog. Aaris seems to be more than a bit of a bad-arse. I rolled his stats (for the heck of it) and got good rolls, increased further by his Azer racial adjustments. I outfitted him with a Chain Shirt +1 and a MW Maul ... he attacks at +10 and deals 8-22 pts of damage a round. He's officially CR 5, but after adjustments he has 18 Str and 18 Con BEFORE he rages. With Power Attack (and a 2-handed weapon) and Improved Overrun he'll be something these PCs have certainly not encountered before ... a combat monster. All together, as a group, they're an EL 11 encounter ... they'd pulp the PCs in about 2-3 rounds of combat. So hopefully the players will see the wisdom of parley. Dunrat will demand, Chatrilon will lounge and laugh ... Dunrat Et All will have brought the Statue from the well room up to the Great Room ... Aaris will walk in, heft the huge thing on his shoulder, and go put it in the cart, roughly ejecting the grick. Thus proving to the PCs that he's more than a little bit of a bad-arse. Hopefully they'll hand over the goods like good little boys and girls. Dunrat, Chatrilon, Chenashi, and Grune will get on the wagon, with the items, and head out the gate ... telling Aaris to "deal" with the troublemakers. This'll lower the EL to about 8.8 or so, which SHOULD be more doable. Aaris may or may-not be too much of a beast ... the party fighter wears light armor and fights TWF style, with High Sword, Low Axe ... if he hits with both sword and axe, he gets a free Imp. Trip attack, which, if successful, gives him another free attack with the longsword. So far, the "concept" of this feat is nice ... but it has come into play once. And then it failed. Even though the Azer doesn't get a dwarven racial bonus on the trip resistance check, I don't know if the fighter can get past his 23 AC with his nerfed BAB ... so far the major damage-dealer has been the Clr3/Bbn1 of Kord with his Greatsword. If the HSLA DOES succeed, that means Aaris th' Azer is on his back and takes AoOs to stand up (anybody else notice that Imp. Trip is crazy-mad in 3.5?) I expect at least 2 deaths in this combat, though. They're just not combat-capable enough. They have alot of varied skills that overcome a bunch of problems, but nobody has the huge hit points and high AC needed to soak up damage. Aaris is going to trounce anybody that gets close enough to smash. --fje
Cordo Crowfoot Deathmantle Cultist (2/6/04 7:00 am) Reply	wow! I would probably tone that down to EL8 at the most, just in case they don't run you don't want a TPK if you can avoid it.