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fjeTheNarrator
Ebon Hand Cultist
(2/9/04 12:40 am)
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Beware the WarCow
I have an odd question. My players have experienced the first portions of Return, most of which take place nominally outside (other than the moathouse).
One of the players just retired a character and brought in another, Druid4/Bbn1, with a Bison animal companion.
... using Handle Animal and Heel, the Druid can get the animal to "follow places it normally wouldn't" ... would it follow the PC into, say, the CRM?
Apparently he went all-out on the companion ... he used the seven tricks it gains to train it for combat, and has bought armor for it. Here's the stat-block:
Alexander; Bison: CR 2; Size L; HD 5d8+15; hp 37; Init +0; Spd 30 ft (base 40 ft); AC 18, touch 9, FF 18; BAB +3; Atk: +8 melee (1d8 + 9, Gore); SA Stampede; SQ Low-light vision, scent; SV Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +1; AL N; Str 22, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4.
Skills and Feats: Listen +7, Spot +5; Alertness, Endurance.
Possessions: Military exotic saddle, Large barding lamellar.
It's a Large creature and with 3.5 that means it's a 10' square and has to Squeeze to fit through or in any 5' areas (not that big a deal with the CRM designed for Ogres and such).
I just have some reservations ... it has good AC (as good as the Druid in a Dragonhide breastplate), good Attack Bonus (as good as the frontline fighter), and good damage (0.5 less average damage than the frontline fighter). IE, this WarCow is pretty dangerous in combat. It feels to me like we're getting TWO PCs instead of one.
The Handle Animal checks aren't really a problem ... it's DC 10 for any command he gives and giving a command is a free action. I doubt he'll fail many.
I already stated that I thought it would be hard to get the animal to follow him into dungeons and the like, so he asked to use an additional trick to get, basically, Improved Heel (I called it Dungeoncow,  ). He had to give up Tracking as a trick, so I see that as a trade, but I'm not sure if its enough of one.
How has everybody else handled Animal Companions? Large, combat-capable companions? I'm not sure if its fair to rule that the cow has to stay with the horses, either ... isn't part of the balance of the Druid class that they get an animal companion?
Oi. I just think this is going to be a headache ... of course the bison can't go up ladders ... what about the water in the water temple? ... Fire and fur? ...
--fje
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Gansk
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/9/04 1:23 am)
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Re: Beware the WarCow
IMC, the Druid has a brown bear animal companion that she picked up at 4th level using 3.0 rules. When we converted to 3.5, I allowed the bear to remain, provided that the time was spent to teach the bear tricks using the handle animal skill.
The result is that the bear is basically an excellent front line fighter who wipes out the mooks in the CRM with ease. It has a decent AC once it receives a Mage Armor from the wizard. It has been a hassle, but the Druid is a powerful class in 3.5 and I am just dealing with it.
I am completely confident that eventually the Druid will be forced to retire the bear for its own safety. I don't know if that will be in OF or the Fire Temple, but I expect it to around then. A creature like the bebilith hitting a few times might be enough.
One thing that you will want to do is make the bison refuse to fight any undead or abberations until it is taught the trick to overcome its fear of those creatures (I forget the name of the trick). I am tempted to make the bear refuse to fight fire elementals, no matter what trick it is taught.
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Killiak 
Deathmantle Cultist
(2/9/04 2:05 am)
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Re: Beware the WarCow
That cow is going down fast. Don't u worry 
That AC 18, even IF it is mage armored isn't going to hold. The barbarian in my group runs around with AC 22 and still goes down in EVERY fight
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fjeTheNarrator
Ebon Hand Cultist
(2/9/04 3:00 am)
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Re: Beware the WarCow
There IS the AC issue. The main fighters are both multiclassed Bbn/Divine Casters ... one is a Bbn2/Clr3 of Kord and now the Bbn1/Drd4. Their ACs are both 18.
I tried to teach them a lesson with the fight today. They overcame, but just barely (I forgot to include Garrick in the battle, he would have tipped the tide).
An Azer Bbn 3 (Cr 5), four gnolls, Gren, and a grick kept the party fighting hard and running scared. BOTH front line fighters (Bbn1/Clr3, Ftr4) were dropped to negatives rather early and repeatedly. Of five PCs, 3 were down for most of the battle. It was only that they pressed the attack and that I didn't CDG and take AoOs with the Azer that they didn't die outright. The Rog/Clr was tumbling around burning all of her spells to keep people alive for the whole battle.
At one point the fighter dropped fighting the grick. I could have CDG, but the entry said they liked to pull defeated foes to their lair to eat, so I had it start dragging the body across the battlefield for several rounds. Rather exciting, but I digress.
I had hoped, honestly, that it would show them they needed a High AC/ High HP frontline fighter of some sort. The Azer had AC 23 and 54hp (not that great) and he dropped everybody he closed with. Only a lucky critical arrow from the Rog/Ftr actually brought his HP down to something they could deal with (by forcing me to consume his Cure Mod. Pots instead of attacking or CDGing).
I was excited when the Ftr said his PC was retiring (Almost being eaten by some cthulhoid monster was the last straw) but he whips out this Bbn/Drd ... 18 AC, 47hp.
They're winning through numbers, at this point ... 5PCs and now a WarCow ... the module doesn't punish them because thus-far, most encounters are with spellcasters and mookish melee. Real melee beasts, as we've seen, absolutely obliterate them.
I guess it'll take an encounter where they lose 2-3 PCs before they realize how weak they are in the AC/HP department ... something more mid HP/low AC bodies can't really replace.
--fje
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JRedGiant
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/9/04 6:33 am)
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WarCow...that's cool!
First off, the WarCow is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.
That being said, I have a druid in my campaign who frequently brings wolves to the party. Even with access now to an awakened dire wolf which frequently packs greater magic fang and a natures favor in combat, he's not exactly a killing machine compared to the fighters.
I wouldn't worry about the balance issues either. The first player who dies will probably decide to bring in a tank, and then you'll be fine.
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 Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(2/9/04 6:45 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Beware the WarCow
Don't worry about it. It is part of the class. Animal companions help druids and rangers in the early parts of their careers, but once 9th level or so is reached, the rest of the party easily outclasses the animal companions. At that point, various spell effects (based on HD) will affect the animal companions and any cohorts, sometimes causing them to be a hindrance rather than a help. The druid spent a lot of time, money, and effort on the animal companion, so let it work. One question about the barding, is it metal? I would say that the druid cannot use metal armor on himself OR on his animal companion.
The animal companion will go into the CRM without too much of a problem. It will have great difficulty in some of the rougher areas of the mines, and in the tracks, so keep that in mind. It's built for large grassy plains, not like a goat. Also, if the druid keeps sending Alexander out in front, he's essentially treating it like cannon fodder and that should be discouraged (dunno if this is true from your description, just pointing it out).
"They're winning through numbers, at this point ... 5PCs and now a WarCow ... the module doesn't punish them because thus-far, most encounters are with spellcasters and mookish melee. Real melee beasts, as we've seen, absolutely obliterate them."
My group started with 7 PC's, one a halfling druid with an advanced, awakened wolf (eventually anyway, 3.0 and MotW) and mounted combat. At the point they hit the mines, one PC dropped out, but everyone else remained. In the switch to 3.5 (thank God), the wolf (reincarnated as a boar) decided to leave and pursue a career in the bardic arts, perhaps. She then had a tiger and now a light warhorse. At about 7th level, the animal companion stopped being such a huge factor and at 9th level it was really not a big deal. Now at 11th level, she doesn't dare bring it to the Outer Fane. She always burns some resources on the animal, so IMO it balances out nicely.
PS If you are interested in a lot more details, check out my log, though it is long.
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fjeTheNarrator
Ebon Hand Cultist
(2/9/04 7:18 am)
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Re: Beware the WarCow
Hrm. I may rule that Alexander the WarCow can't use metallic armor, either. Only problem is, most non-metalic armor is made out of ... leather and hide.
How would an animal feel about wearing a cousin? Eep.
I used Lammellar out of A&E because it seems fairly "Steppe People of Ancient Russia". That's sort of where his PC is from. I may increase the cost further and demand it be made of ironwood or dragonhide and cloth. (Right now metal and cloth.)
Originally he wanted dragonhide half-plate, but I said I just couldn't see a big shaggy bison in Half-Plate barding ... it'd look like a wookie in stormtrooper armor.
I guess my reservations are unfounded. Originally I statted up the WarCow incorrectly, using the full Druid level ... that gave the WarCow +2 HD, better BAB, better saves, higher Str, and another feat. He came out BETTER than both fighter-types in every combat category. So I freaked out a bit until I read the entry a little better and noticed that he advanced only as a 1st level Druid's animal companion, bringing it back down to something workable.
In another game that both of us play in, this player has a Summoner wizard that likes to bring in Augmented Celestial Bison. They're pretty nasty.
He has a thing with the BattleCattle.
Thanks for your input, folks. Honestly, I've just never had anybody choose to play a Druid before, so I've never had to deal with them and some of the abilities were unexpected.
--fje
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Andorax
Brother of Venom
(2/9/04 7:47 am)
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Re: Beware the WarCow
The one comment I'd like to make here, as a reminder...
Int 2
It's not going to do any independant decision making...or at least none that the party will be happy with in all likelyhood. It'll take orders so long as the Druid's there to give them, but if he's scouting, busy, or unconscious you will have an angry, confused WarCow that doesn't take orders well, and is *not* going to be lead around by the reins by any other PC in the party.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(2/9/04 8:23 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Beware the WarCow
Andorax brings up a good point. Alexander is a free thinking individual. This means that YOU control it, not the player. I have my player run the animal companion herself, but the ultimate decision of what it does is up to you. The only difference is when/if he uses it as a mount, in which case let the PC fully control it, as normal for mounted combat.
BattleCattle is okay. Just don't let the wizard/sorcerer learn Evard's black tentacles or eneveration.
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Mr Kaze
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/9/04 8:23 am)
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Re: Beware the WarCow
I am also impressed by the warcow, but there are a couple of concerns:
- It's a freakin' Bison. How do you make a saddle for a Bison -- you know, with that mountainous shoulder-hump? Maybe sling halflings in rump-packs, but asking anybody to make an "exotic" saddle for a Bison would probably just get the druid laughed at. "You look so war-like, I thought you'd want a saddle for a real fighting animal... a lion or somesuch. But a bison? No, nobody's silly enough to try to ride one of those into combat. I do not know how to saddle one." (So how much craft skill does the druid have?)
- Is the Bison actually proficient with the armor? (It's probably listed somewhere, but I didn't see it when I was barding up a horse last night.) If not, then armor check penalty applies on all rolls that the creature makes.
There are lots of things -- those with DR/Special Material, especially, though Gaze Attacks are nifty too -- that will cause great misery for any party that's relying on a fighter with an int of 2, not the least of which is that the Bison grows slower than the rest of the party. But, hey, if it makes the silly little combats where all of the opponents have <= 10 HP more fun for the players, that's good...
...Because it's all fun and games until somebody screams "All archers, target that druid-looking clown wearing the antlers! The cow won't fight without him!"
::Kaze (watches in confusion as the PCs change their plans, march in to certain doom and then despair as they get whomped.)
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Mr Kaze
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/9/04 9:06 am)
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Re: Beware the WarCow
I am also impressed by the warcow, but there are a couple of concerns:
- It's a freakin' Bison. How do you make a saddle for a Bison -- you know, with that mountainous shoulder-hump? Maybe sling halflings in rump-packs, but asking anybody to make an "exotic" saddle for a Bison would probably just get the druid laughed at. "You look so war-like, I thought you'd want a saddle for a real fighting animal... a lion or somesuch. But a bison? No, nobody's silly enough to try to ride one of those into combat. I do not know how to saddle one." (So how much craft skill does the druid have?)
- Is the Bison actually proficient with the armor? (It's probably listed somewhere, but I didn't see it when I was barding up a horse last night.) If not, then armor check penalty applies on all rolls that the creature makes.
There are lots of things -- those with DR/Special Material, especially, though Gaze Attacks are nifty too -- that will cause great misery for any party that's relying on a fighter with an int of 2, not the least of which is that the Bison grows slower than the rest of the party. But, hey, if it makes the silly little combats where all of the opponents have <= 10 HP more fun for the players, that's good...
...Because it's all fun and games until somebody screams "All archers, target that druid-looking clown wearing the antlers!"
::Kaze (watches in confusion as the PCs change their plans, march in to certain doom and then despair as they get whomped.)
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PerfectParabola7
Ebon Hand Cultist
(2/9/04 2:16 pm)
Reply
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Re: Beware the WarCow
A bison will need a lot of food during extended forays into the CRM. What are they feeding it and how are they transporting it?
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