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Author
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Comment
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Killiak 
Deathmantle Cultist
(2/10/04 4:07 pm)
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ARGH. 2 temple down, HIGH AC PC/ HELP!
So, what do I do now?
Earth and Air are down and dead, quite easilly too. Average level is about 8.
The party is mostly about high AC and curing, which helps them enough. I have a SS trumpet archon, a cleric, centaur barbarian and Coure Eladrin wizard. Only the barbarian is sort of hittable. The rest runs with AC 32+.......
What to do? Send in Stalkers and Ukemil? Or have Hedrack pull out big after a full scrying week?
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smetzger
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/10/04 4:53 pm)
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Re: ARGH. 2 temple down, HIGH AC PC/ HELP!
I recommend sticking to the script.
Send an Assassin in with a Stalker. The Stalker can stay completly out of the fight and then escape to tell H. about the party and how the fight went. The party will probably roll over the Assassin, thats ok. U. and the Lions should prove a bit of a challenge, especially if you can orchestrate multiple charges and pounces.
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Knowe Remorse 
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/10/04 4:54 pm)
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Re: ARGH. 2 temple down, HIGH AC PC/ HELP!
touch AC my friend. Go for their weak spots (cleric) at his touch AC. How are their AC's so high anyway?
What happens to your Archon player if someone Banishes him?
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of All Who Threaten it. Edited by: Knowe Remorse at: 2/10/04 4:56 pm
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fjeTheNarrator
Ebon Hand Cultist
(2/10/04 5:21 pm)
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Re: ARGH. 2 temple down, HIGH AC PC/ HELP!
Er. You realize that, in alot of ways, you were just about asking for problems with all of those non-standard PC races?
Not a flame, I'm just saying ... hoi. I thought I had problems dealing with a Druid with an armored bison warmachine.
My DM in an FR game is having sort of the same problem with me. I'm playing a Dwarven Defender Ftr2/Pal4/DD2 (He lowered the entry req for DD to keep me from cheesing another PRC or two). My PC has a flat AC 31 and uses Dodge, Full Defense, etc etc to get it up to AC 36 (more with buffs). He runs a really slow game, so I've had this PC for about a month and he ran the first battle last week. The enemy needed a natural 20 to hit me every time, even without full defense or Combat Expertise. (I have the Complete Warrior feat where if I use Full Defense and they miss, I get to strike the next round at +4).
With ACs like that you're going to have to use alot more in the way of direct damage spells. The War1 mooks abounding in the CRM aren't much of a fight for anybody's party, but with 30s for their AC they're going to demolish just about everything before the Fanes, I would think.
You may have to go out to other material and find some equally broken things to throw at them that aren't in the book. Monte wrote this back in 3.0 for a group of 4 assumedly "normal" PCs. The enemies in it aren't especially tweaked out. Find some replacement equipment from things like the Book of Vile Darkness and Complete Warrior that won't officially raise the CR (and thus XP value) of enemies, but which will allow them to more effectively deal with the abilities of the group.
I'm not sure exactly what the run-down of abilities would be for most of those PCs ... IE, what abilities does the Archon have? If they've got SR or something, then spells become problematic. Basically all -I- know is they have high AC, where-upon I say ... play upon their weakest save with spells, erode their HP with direct damage magic, and have the NPCs react realistically ... if its common knowledge that these people are so well armored and armed that they can't even be HURT, then the enemy won't throw themselves on the PCs swords ... have them retreat, regroup, rethink ... no enemies = no XP.
Invisible archer assasin/rogues with poison and potions of True Strike would probably penetrate their armor and do good damage. Greater Invis at 30' they might escape before the Invis Purge hits. Another pot of Expeditious Retreat ...
Dunno.
Could also try Heat Metal on their armor once in a while.
Mmmm ... Do unto them as they do unto you. Create a combat BEAST of an NPC with AC in the 30s and back him up with a High AC clerical figure of some sort ... some mooks to provide flanking ... summoning creatures, etc.
--fje
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JRedGiant
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/10/04 5:38 pm)
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Not to worry
I wouldn't worry about it too much. The bad guys who can hit the PC's are going to shock them, and that's always good.
Recitation is a great spell for the bad guy clerics, giving a +3 to hit for all of your bad guys. Direct damage spells like fireball, magic missile, flame strike, Chymon's breath, etc... are good. The spectre near the air temple should blow right through their touch AC also.
As for the assassins, needless to say they should attack at night, when the PC's are out of their armor and buff spells are expired.
Oh, and don't miss Dispel Magic...or better yet, Wall of Dispel Magic from the Underdark book. It's great for wiping the smiles from overeager players.
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 Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(2/10/04 6:45 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Not to worry
The splatbooks (including SS) are mostly broken and overpowered. I recognized this quickly and thus the huge Splatbook Changes section. I highly suggest you use it, plus the BoVD, plus whatever else you can get your hands on to artificially powerup the bad guys without raising their CRs. The module was made using core rules only, plus the additional material in the module itself, so the bad guys (except for the Doomdreamers) have a distinct disadvantage.
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fjeTheNarrator
Ebon Hand Cultist
(2/10/04 7:28 pm)
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Re: Not to worry
This is one reason I'm running a Core Rules Only campaign.
The other is that I'm running with DMGenie and thus anything external I have to input by hand.
Using stripped down C.
I'm an English major.
It took me a good half hour to get a working Half-Elemental template up and running, and I'm still not done with it yet.
I let the players use the occassional simple thing from Complete Warrior, but only one thing thus far (and the PC using that just got retired). I think somebody is planning a Guardian Familiar. He's playing his PC without a familiar up until he can get all of the feats and money to pay for the thing ... I'm still reviewing it.
I have to make sure that I don't allow anything in so powerful that it, in turn, causes me to have to increase my workload balancing after the fact.
--fje
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Mr Kaze
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/10/04 9:50 pm)
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Re: Oh the things you can do...
1) Review whether or not all of those bonuses stack. 32 is on the high side for a single caster, let alone 3/4s of the party. If it should all stack (I really doubt this), alter some NPCs to use the same armor-building tactics.
2) Find some trolls. Add a level of monk. Choose "improved grapple" for the bonus feat. Start grapples with just a touch attack. Squash. Rend. Repeat.
3) If they've got shields (fair guess), then sunder them. Take an adamant version of Shatterspike and cut right through it.
4) Try monsters like Rust Monsters, Chain Golems, Bebiliths, large half-fiend gibbering mouthers, etc to get monsters that don't worry so much about hitting. (Chain Golem and Mouther stats in my "Alterations" thread. Also got an AC 30+ Spored Master who doesn't really have to attack to do damage...)
5) Energy Substitution on a wand of Scorching Ray with a 7th level caster (2 range-touch attacks, 4d6 each -- and not the element they were expecting based on the caster) works wonders -- up to 8d6 at range, no save.
6) Book of Challenges has an interesting climbing trap -- a dispel magic trap followed by an antimagic zone of some sort (about 80' up...). AC doesn't help when you're falling. Or, what I would probably use instead... Swimming through a flooded tunnel.
And there was the good idea of Banishment on the archon earlier, which could probably be amended/expounded with Magic Circle vs. Good. Or maybe some demons/devils want that archon dead so badly that they'll be Planar Allied in exchange for any loot that they can get off of its smouldering corpse...
Rotten do-gooder celestials.
Anyway, the difficulty you're likely to have is beating their AC without TPK'ing them -- which is why I started off with the option that I did: Figure out what they're doing and -- if it's legal -- do likewise.
Hope it inspires,
::Kaze
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Killiak
Deathmantle Cultist
(2/10/04 10:41 pm)
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well
Runing around in a Full plate and Large Steel SHield with magic vestments at +4 because of a Bead of Karma is core..........
Dispels haven't been lucky that much, but I am thinking of building touch AC wizards instead of the sorcerers in the lightning towers
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Siobharek 
(2/11/04 12:39 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: well
You run a 3.5 or 3.0 campaign? Because a bead of karma is somewhat more expensive in 3.5 than in 3.0.
But in that case, touch AC is definitely the way to go. Give the mooks tanglefoot bags and alchemist's fires. Maybe even have them go for a grapple.
Apart from that, what was said previously is very true: Hedrack needs intel. Now. If he doesn't know what's taking out his temples, he can't act against it. So having either Ukemil and the lions or an assassin with either an invisible naga or an invisible stalker as observer should definitely be the next move.
I think, without knowing what you have done so far, that you could apply a little extra pleasure. The CRM may still be a playground for the PCs, but now someone's stalking them in it. If you hunt the PCs - within reason: It shouldn't become a you vs. them game - they won't always be buffed to the teeth.
Nor would it be completely out of line for Hedrack to give the high priests of the remaining temples one lvl 12 dispel magic scroll each. That might even the odds a bit. You could also simply have someone steal the bead, but that would IMHO be a little too heavy-handed. It would, however, teach the players not to rely on one item  .
Let me tell you that I was where you are now. My PCs buffed to the gills and took out a buffed and prepped fire temple with ease. And it depressed me. I wasn't shooting for a TPK, but I would like to see some entries in their "current HP" box. There's not really an easy solution to this, but I hope that the above will help.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
fjeTheNarrator
Ebon Hand Cultist
(2/11/04 9:41 am)
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3.5 Bead Of Karma
Mmm ... I'm doing the math here. At least for 3.5.
You said the average level is 8th. Is the Cleric 12th?
Bead Of Karma adds +4 Caster Level for ten minutes. (And be sure to remind him that it's only 10 minutes once a day, so if he spends it all on early-morning buffing the bead's tapped out later.) 8+4=12 ... 12/4=3 ... so at 12th level the enhancement bonus from each casting of Magic Vestment is +3 ... it won't reach +4 until Caster Level 16 so to be getting +4 out of that BoK he'd be a 12th level caster. It's the difference between 27AC and 29AC, but still, might make him more hittable if he's doing the math wrong.
12th level PCs should walk over the earth and air temples. Mine will be going in at 5th.
There's also the fact that a Strand Of Prayer Beads (Standard) has a market price of 25,800gp ... The recommended loot value, in GP, for an 8th level PC is 27,000gp (I think, I just built an 8th level PC). So that Strand Of Prayer Beads is worth just about ALL of what a PC of that level should have ... IE, if he's got a strand of prayer beads (standard) and magic weapon and magic sheild and sundry other Wonderous Items then he's got way too much in the way of magical items.
You might want to do a run-down of what all the PCs have in the way of treasure ... does everybody have more than 30,000gp in personal wealth?
I feel like I'm coming off sort of badly ... "Well they're too powerful and they're not core and they have too much treasure." But what I'm trying to say is that if the PCs are substantially more powerful than a group of "standard" 8th level PCs, then they're going to roll over things Monte designed to challenge that imaginary group of 4 "standard" PCs.
You may have to sit down with the players and talk to them about it. If they have 8-10k more treasure than they should, you might address it. If their nonstandard races are giving them special abilities that the module didn't take into account, you might want to sit down and talk about it. Of course first look and see if you can address challenging them with touch spells, etc etc.
--fje
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Killiak
Deathmantle Cultist
(2/11/04 9:57 am)
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Re: 3.5 Bead Of Karma
Well, since RttToEE is 3.0 material I sorta figured it to stand to reason for it to be 3.0 
Anywayz; I play it in 3.0, so it is possible. Dispellings would certainly help alot, but I can't just start upgrading the CRM, cause it's a never ending cycle (as some have noticed).
I figure my players will soon meet some Fane denizens and lose interest in the temples altogether. We'll see....
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Tribal28
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/11/04 10:22 am)
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Adding my ME TOO
I ran this module a while back and noticed a few things. First is when you start making the encounters tougher all it does in cause the players to get more exp and like it has been noticed...its a never ending cycle. I highly recomend staying away from that.
I've also noticed several posts about characters running over the CRM (and other parts of the module) When asked what the PC's are playing mostly I see the answers are non standard races and classes. I think that is also something that should be avoided with this mod.
As far as how to challenge the players in this case...well touch attacks is one way to go. Dispel and spells that don't take AC into account. Things that sap strength are also fun...a charcter in full plate who suddenly looses some of their STR may have trouble moving.
As a side note, when I DM'd the mooks I often had them realize they couldn't hit the high AC's and had them fight on the defensive. It raises there AC a bit and if they can only hit on a natural 20 then the penalties don't really matter.
Tribal (student of the shaman)
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deafdungeonmasterRIT
Deathmantle Cultist
(2/11/04 12:49 pm)
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hmmm
Army of Abyss and Legion of Hell both will work excellent. You can try Razorwire golem. Speaking of golem, half golem templates may be a good way to go! Fallen angels template may be a good idea, too. Believe it or not, niblog may be a good idea to use!
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Taelohn
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/11/04 3:32 pm)
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Re: hmmm
Bah, their high AC won't help when they get hit with half a dozen Fort 28 destruction spells.
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Caedrel
Crimson Coil Cultist
(2/11/04 7:23 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Just my two bits' worth
Too bad the Earth Temple is already down - I used Infiniti's fiendish centipede swarm (immune to physical weapons, doesn't matter what your AC is, fire resistance) and it gave my combat powerful party a good run all on its own.
Also, I wouldn't feel too bad about temples that have gone down at this point: the Earth and Air Temples are the weakest ones, and the ones most susceptible to combat capable PCs.
The Fire Temple - if they get enough warning to set up in the Temple - have the advantage of Tessimon out of immediate melee range and able to case flame strike at her enemies. If they get close, she can use the lesser tentacle rod to grapple them which, as has already been mentioned, only involves a touch attack. Zert will probably find himself outmatched, but he's smart enough to employ the full defense tactic mentioned earlier, and if he pulls back to the Temple proper, he and Skassik plus the burning skeletons should keep them occupied for some time while Tessimon and Firre hit them with their direct damage distance spells. Arlainth also has the wand of fireball, and since all the bad guys in the Fire Temple proper get fire resistance from the unhallow effect, he can be quite liberal in tossing them around (not to mention his personal ability to cast that spell).
The Water Temple should also be more of a challenge, just from an environment point of view. It's got to be pretty hard to swim in full plate, especially with a shield; if they get caught unprepared by the sea hag in a boat, they'll be in deep trouble. The kuo toa are immune to webs, which Nilbool has memorised, so they could easily attack characters caught in one.
How have they gone with the bridge complexes? Again, if the bad guys get warning, they can prepare properly and the whole thing is pretty exciting, even if the PCs really are having a relatively easy time of it. Riu can boost his mooks with mass enlarge, rage, and invisibility sphere - although it doesn't help them hit the PCs much more, it still makes the battle interesting for them, which is really what we're trying to do - make sure they don't get complacent or bored, even if they are winning quite handily 
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Mr Kaze
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/11/04 9:23 pm)
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Re: Just my two bits' worth
It's fortunate that Killiak's is a 3.0 adventure -- the 3.5 Resist Elements (the 2nd level one) completely nerfs the Fire temple's ample-and-obvious supply of fire.
::Kaze (killing overprepared PCs with Energy Substitution since... just last week, actually...)
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Killiak
Deathmantle Cultist
(2/11/04 11:04 pm)
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Re: Just my two bits' worth
They took out the fire bridge complex in a big battle, and Riu is next in line
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Grumgarr
Crimson Coil Cultist
(2/18/04 6:05 am)
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Re: Just my two bits' worth
Quote:
If they get close, she can use the lesser tentacle rod to grapple them which, as has already been mentioned, only involves a touch attack.
- emphasis mine.
I just wanted to point this out - I've seen two posts that say the Tentacle Rods grapple on a touch attack. They don't.
They initiate a grapple on a successful melee attack, just like the Improved Grab monstrous ability - NOT on a touch attack.
I can see where the confusion arises as touch attacks are how grappling usually starts, but the rods as written don't perform grapples normally - just as an added extra once a melee attack hits. So high AC works just fine against the rods.
High ACs won't be so much of an issue once the group hits the Outer Fane. Chymon, greater elementals etc. won't miss much and as pointed out already high AC won't save anyone from high-DC spells.
Grumgarr
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Killiak
Deathmantle Cultist
(2/18/04 6:16 am)
Reply
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Re: Just my two bits' worth
YEah well, main problem is that they are a good bit away from the water temple and it is about time to start springing some nasty OF croonies on them
Thanks for all the good ideas though
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Asperix
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/19/04 9:04 am)
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Re: Just my two bits' worth
Killiak,
I wouldn't worry about it too much. However if you want to have the players get more of a challenege w/o upping the CR's, here's a few thoughts
1) The PCs are assumed to be the good guys. They're suppose to win (most of the battles)
2) There will be many opportunities to challenge the PCs. True, the CRMs fire temple and vranthis are probably the top 2 tourist attractions. Also, sending the assassin hit-squad from the outter fane to the camped unbuffed PCs in the CRM can also add a challenge.
3) You are the DM. Be sure to check there PC sheets to make sure their attack and AC bonus are correct.
4) You can have the bad guys play more intelligently. Whenever they face the PCs, have them in larger groups instead of sprawled out all over the local area (i.e. like a bad kung-fu movie).
5) Replace some baddies with more ranged attacks/ spells/ dispells. Make better use of spells/tactics to divide and conquer the party. i.e. web, pit traps that divide party members along a narrow corridor, etc..
6) Make use of the cult forces touch attacks to by-pass high AC PCs
7) When the party goes to the outter/inner fane, have all the baddies buffed to the max all the time.
-Asperix
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