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JRedGiant
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/24/04 8:07 am)
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Spectres and shadows oh my
Next time we play my group will probably hit the crypt area of the CRM where Un'ariq's shrine is. There's a bunch of incorporeal undead - spectres and shadows - nearby. Here's my question.
One of my players has a grimlock fighter. I don't think incorporeal beings give off a scent. Furthermore, the spectres at least are described as always moving silently. So would the grimlock be effectively blinded against them?
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 Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(2/24/04 8:36 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Spectres and shadows oh my
Yup! 
That's going to be one nasty battle for the grimlock, particularly if you have the spectres take cover from the floor or walls.
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JRedGiant
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/24/04 9:18 am)
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I know....
And last session he spent a fight with the mimic stuck frenzying in the pit by Tulian's Eye. Sucks to be him.
Should I be worried about this one, I2K? The good guys no longer have a cleric and the healer they picked up is still only 5th level. Give their best fighter a pair of 50% miss chances on top of the 9/10's cover their going to get and it's really icky.
On the plus side, they'll get the +1 higher ground bonus against the baddies in the floor. Color of the ashes I think though...
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Infiniti2000
Brother of Venom
(2/24/04 10:11 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: I know....
There's a reasonable chance for a TPK if they refuse to flee. The incorporeal touch attacks will almost always hit, except maybe on someone with mage armor and shield or bracers of armor (all of which apply vs incorporeal touch, though not touch). If someone gets drained with 4 levels remaining, a single critical hit will kill them. Without a decent cleric, it's gonna be real tough unless they come up with some great rolls.
However, they have entered a crypt, so they don't deserve any slack IMO. If they want to go searching through a dangerous crypt area, they had better be prepared. This is particularly true if they do not flee at the first sight (or attack) of the undead. If you are feeling especially benevolent, tell the party member with the highest knowledge (religion) score that messing with incorporeal undead is particularly dangerous.
PS. Side note about the dire bats for 3.5: The cave is rather small for 4 Large dire bats, so I advise you to have the bats attack from above (gaining +1 on attacks). This gives the PC's room to maneuver below them though the bats will get AoO's if they do so (without spring attack, etc. negating such AoO's). Bats have the maneuverability raiting that allows them to hover.
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Thrommel
Runechild (mod)
Council of Magisters
(2/24/04 11:54 am)
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Re: I know....
{There's a reasonable chance for a TPK if they refuse to flee.}
Seconded. Especially with no cleric.
That is one badaxe encounter. There's a high likelihood of a character or two getting swarmed and once the negative levels start piling up, it's a quick trip to the burn pile.
I would give your party plenty of foreshadowing that something isn't right.
My group got split up when most of them were cursed from opening the coffins. So half stood outside (where I ruled the effect no longer worked) while the tanks went tomb-busting.
Needless to say, when the main dwarf fighter starts yelling "FLAME STRIKE ME" all the way down the hallway things are not going well for our heroes.
-Thrommel, who was only too happy to flamestrike him. Unfortunately the request was directed toward the party.
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JRedGiant
Tolling Bell Cultist
(2/24/04 12:53 pm)
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Ick
This bodes ill. The timing couldn't be worse. Bethe and Victor, who have a general idea of the party's modus operandi, are getting ready to make the first Outer Fane retributitive strike.
The PC's typically venture out from the dwarf shrines, head counterclockwise around the CRM until they get sufficiently wounded and out of spells for a rest, then they huddle back to the dwarf temple. So rather than attack the party in their sleep, they'll likely ambush the party en route to the dwarves. I'm thinking the fire temple's elemental summoning chamber as the most likely spot for an ambush.
Anyways, I appreciate the warnings and will definetely drop some forshadowing. I'm a huge Buffy/Angel fan, so I feel confident in my ability to paint a picture of a crypt gone wrong. Plus the holy liberator will likely detect evil.
I'm going to err on the side of caution here for sure.
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Caedrel
Crimson Coil Cultist
(2/24/04 2:18 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: The curse is nasty too
1 hp damage per round doesn't sound like much, but unless the party cleric has remove curse memorised, the damage is probably going to kill the victim before the party can save him. The only reason my party rogue survived is because the cleric left a spell slot open, and so could spend the 15 minutes praying for the spell... the rogue was kept alive in the meantime by burning up quite a number of charges from their wand of regenerate light wounds (the 1 point of healing per round just offsetting the 1 point of damage per round).
It's not a one off thing either. Unless the party destroys the guardian statues, they have to make a save EVERY time they mess around with one of the sarcophagi. My party was also lulled into a false sense of security by our rogue's very high Search and Disable Device ability, thinking that that would detect and take care of any traps associated with the crypts - but this has a different mechanic and they weren't ready for it all.
After that close call, my party has been avoiding the place. Varachan has given them instructions for using the pool, though, hinting that the information they might gain thereby would be very helpful. (IMC, I was looking for reasons for Varachan's defection, and I had gone down the path of him seeing Tharizdun's tomb and conversing with the solar... if I'd seen the idea of him being involved with Prince Thrommel's corruption earlier, I'd have used that - it's a great piece of RP, but the party had already met both of them, so it was too late...  )
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Cordo Crowfoot
Deathmantle Cultist
(2/24/04 3:45 pm)
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Re: The curse is nasty too
My party sent an arcane eye down through the entire complex, and after seeing the room filled with shadows as spectres decided to give the whole area a miss. 
Quote:
Give their best fighter a pair of 50% miss chances on top of the 9/10's cover their going to get and it's really icky.
I probably wouldn't use cover. It's not really calculated into the difficulty calculations that incorporeal creatures would be doing this and not that fair to PCs IMHO.
Moreover, 1) they should be confident they will overwhelm the party with their vast numbers anyway, 2) if they are maintaining that much cover, it is quite likely that their heads would be in the walls/floors and their targets would have some measure of concealment.
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JRedGiant
Staj
(3/7/04 9:49 pm)
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Turned out ok
I used the cover, but gave a 10% ad hoc adjustment to earned XP. I rolled terribly and managed to not give anyone more than 4 negative levels. No one suffered any permanent harm.
Another important safety tip for those running this room. The map obscures the wall between this room and 135. It appeared to me that there was a passage between the two rooms and some trolls living in the room next door to the spectres...which of course made no sense.
As for the curse, the statues are no match for a suspicious party with A) a holy liberator who detects them as evil, B) a player who asks if they are the same warrior as on the four sided column from the moathouse, C) a wizard who detects them as necromantic magic and most importantly D) a barbarian who decides to break them on general principle.
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Infiniti2000
Night Beast
(3/8/04 7:15 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Turned out ok
I love barbarian principles.
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madfox
Night Beast
(3/9/04 1:47 am)
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Re: Turned out ok
If you allow incorporeals to attack from out of the wall, you should give them a miss chance as well since while they might be able to go through a wall, they cannot SEE through it.
[Edit Note: changed corporeals into INcorporeals, because corporeals obviously cannot stand in walls ]
Edited by: madfox at: 3/9/04 5:52 am
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Cordo Crowfoot
(3/9/04 5:40 am)
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Re: Turned out ok
That's what I said above. I agree with you Madfox.
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JRedGiant
Staj
(3/9/04 5:58 am)
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I feel
I feel that's a matter of individual DM interpretation. I think it's possible for the incorporeals to move their "eyes" up through the floor and peek out, still being under cover. The degree of cover may not be 9/10's...it might be 3/4's or even 1/2.
Ultimately, the decision lies on what works best for you and your own players. Mine did not have a problem with it at all.
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madfox
Night Beast
(3/9/04 6:03 am)
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Re: I feel
Medium sized creatures use a 5x5 ft square to fight. If one side of this square (or the whole square) is covered by a wall, I find the idea of the creature in the area being able to peek through the wall withouth entering the neighbouring square a bit strange. So to me this looks a lot like the creature effectively being blind. Of course, under these circumstances the creature has complete cover and a PC has to ready an action.
Now if there is an object in the square that does not fill the complete square, such a sacrophagus, then cover without a miss chance is more on its place.
Note that in 3.5 there is no such thing as 9/10th cover, a creature either has cover or not. A +4 cover bonus on AC is not that much for most incorporeal opponents.
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Infiniti2000
Night Beast
(3/9/04 6:15 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: I feel
Just remember that the incorporeal creatures moves at half speed through the wall (since it is blind). Also, there is an option for 'improved cover', which doubles the effects of cover.
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Cordo Crowfoot
(3/9/04 7:07 pm)
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cover...
I feel pretty strongly about this because I have been screwed as a player. A DM once had us encounter 4 medium Xorn as a 7th level party, all who stayed in the floor attacking us with no penalties. To attack them, we had to ready actions and then they still had +7 to AC due to 9/10ths cover. It was ridiculous.
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JRedGiant
Staj
(3/9/04 7:23 pm)
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Understandable
I can certainly understand your frustration on this issue Cordo. I disagree with the way your DM did it. The real problem I have with your example is that it implies that the Xorn can move, attack and move again all in the same round. Unless the Xorn has spring attack I can't buy that. IMC, the characters frequently took full attacks on the bad guys. Also, I gave a +1 higher ground bonus and disallowed any flanking for either side since there was never a case where the opponants were truly "opposite".
However, I'll point out that NONE of my players felt that this was in any way unfair. In fact, I told them all about this thread. To a man they felt that this is exactly how the shadows should have reacted.
The key here is understanding your own personal play group. By the time any DM gets to this point in the module he should have a pretty good idea as to his players expectations. I'm willing to accept the criticisms of other DM's on this board as to how I run things, but just understand that they are secondary to those of my play group. If you showed up at my table every other sunday
Also, BTW, mine is a 3.0 campaign, so 3.5 rules on cover/concealment do not apply.
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msherman
Briar Beast
(3/10/04 7:49 am)
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Re: Understandable
Heh. My group might be interested in this thread for the exact opposite reason of most of you -- Chase the Shadowdancer just called his Shadow companion. He'll be really excited to find out he can flank enemies that he has backed up against the wall.
Sadly, I can't let him read the thread, because the party hasn't been to the crypt yet.
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Cordo Crowfoot
(3/10/04 3:55 pm)
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Re: Understandable
I'm not understanding why you think the Xorn have to move, attack, and then move again. The DM was simply saying they were in the 5' square right under the characters in the ground (using their earth glide power). I assume he thought we wouldn't get concealment against them because their tremorsense told them where our feet touch the earth.
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JRedGiant
Staj
(3/10/04 5:08 pm)
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Move Attack Move
Where your DM and I seem to disagree is whether or not you can attack when fully buried in the earth. I felt that the shadows had to stick their heads up past their eyes, and that their arms would be constantly positioning for a touch attack. In my opinion, some sort of move action or at least a 5'step is required to go from "totally buried" to "9/10's cover".
I'm not sure if Tremorsense would negate the requirement to move eyes about the ground level...it probably would...but it's not relevant to the shadow/spectre issue since they don't have it.
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