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msherman
Briar Beast
(3/1/04 5:15 am)
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Planar Ally for the good guys
Hamish, the (12th level) cleric of Pelor in my game, is considering casting a Planar Ally for his rematch against Hedrack and Thrommel. I've got a few questions about how to adjudicate this.
1) What would Pelor send? The obvious choices to me seem to be between a Leonal Guardinal or an Astral Deva. The Deva seems stronger (and the CRs bear that out) -- particularly with the Mace of Disruption against Thrommel. The Leonal has much more Healing ability, though (lay on hands 114hp, 3 cure critical/day, 1 heal/day). I think the Leonal might be easier to run, with it's simpler Spell-like abilities list.
2) If the task requested is something on the order of, "Join us tomorrow on a 12 minute assault on the Outer Fane to destroy a viscious vampire and a high priest of Tharizdun," does that count as 1 minute per level, or 1 hour per level? IE: must the task (and the time bargained for) begin immediately?
3) What would a Guardinal or Deva ask for in payment? A simple hand-over of gold doesn't seem like their style. Also, the party's pretty strapped for cash, but Hamish's word is good -- do you think a guardinal or deva would accept his word for payment (of, say, a percentage of the loot donated to the church) after the enemies are vanquished?
4) Would a (NG) Guardinal or Deva have qualms about assisting non-aligned members of the party? The party consists of Hamish (NG cleric of Pelor), Chase (CG ftr/rog/shd knight of the hart, pragmatic but genuinely good), Shalathal (NN barbarian, stoic and dependable, but not particularly convinced by all this holy mission stuff), and Cyr (CN rogue/wizard, Chase's half-brother, sneaky and decietful with fond memories of the demonstone, but a friend deep down when it counts). If it were a Trumpet Archon, I could definitely see it refusing to assist Cyr with pre-fight spell-like buffing, but I'm not sure how an NG outsider would behave. This is particularly important if I go with the Deva, as they have at-will buffing available: aid and holy aura.
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Killiak 
Briar Beast
(3/1/04 7:24 am)
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
I'd say his word would count as enough, but tje outsiders don't care much for gold donated to anything.
What U can ask is that in return for helping them in battle, the group will have to undertake a mission for the celestials. U could make this a deep cover mission or something more ordinary, like setting a rightfull ruler back o nthe throne instead of an evil dictator in a neighbouring city state.
It might make a nice tie-in for the module if the return-mission is to recover Fragarach and redeem Thrommel  . I believe details of such possibilities have been mentioned on these boards several times...
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JRedGiant
Staj
(3/1/04 7:25 am)
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Question 3
Just a thought for question 3 - payment. I think this would be a good place for the celestial to ask for a favor that is story related. For example, perhaps they cannot abide the existance of the Infernal Machine - it requests the PC's go out of their way to destroy it. Another option would be to retrieve the Talisman of Pure Good from where it resides in the liquid evil in the IF. Perhaps hand the PC's a scroll and say 'deliver this to the solar guarding Tharizdun's gate'.
Something campaign related but not a requirement for finishing the campaign - i.e. 'kill Imix' is not a good choice.
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JRedGiant
Staj
(3/1/04 7:28 am)
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I see...
I see Killiak and I are not only posting at the same time but thinking along the same lines.
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Killiak
Briar Beast
(3/1/04 7:38 am)
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Re: I see...
Though I certainly like your ideas alot too
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msherman
Briar Beast
(3/1/04 9:27 am)
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Re: I see...
Excellent ideas, guys. Fragarach has already been found, and returned to the King of Furyondy, IMC -- that in fact is how Chase got his knighthood.
If the party tells the outsider exactly who the vampire is, then redeeming Thrommel would be a good price to pay -- though it's not really a price the party wasn't going to pay on their own already.
If they end up going for a multi-day task for the planar ally (so a 12000gp cost), I might have the outsider tell them that he is aware of Hedrack's Tentacle Rod, and that he cannot allow such an evil device continued existance - so the payment is that after defeating Hedrack, they destroy the tentacle rod. That has a market price of 21000gp, so it's resale value is pretty close to the 12000gp cost.
So, anyone got any ideas about the other questions?
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Killiak
Briar Beast
(3/1/04 4:59 pm)
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
1) WTF!? Screw the healing! If that group can't take care of themself then they are losers. Send in the tuff nasty Deva. Kick ass Celestial powerrrrr
2) I'd say the ally stays for as long as the FIRST assault lasts
3) We hav given some options. Think along those lines
4) I wouldn't say there'd be any qualms. These are people doing the right thing, though it may be for different motivations. U can let it slide just this once (hey. it's NG, let it slide once )
Edited by: Killiak at: 3/1/04 5:00 pm
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msherman
Briar Beast
(3/2/04 4:14 am)
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
Thanks Killiak. Yeah, I'm leaning towards the Deva, too. The Leonal just doesn't stack up in the butt-kicking department. I'll leave them in the call-center answering divinations and cold-calling for new clerics.
Regarding question 2, yeah, I know they'll stay for only one assault, but the question is how to count time against the "cost" of the deal? If it's a 12 minute fight, but it doesn't happen until the next morning (so the Cleric has a chance to rest and regain that important 6th level spell), should I charge them the 12 minute rate, or the 12 hour rate?
As for question 4, I'm thinking I'm going to slice it down the middle; the Deva will Aid all 4 of them, but will only Holy Aura the two Good characters.
I think I'm going to prep waves of enemies arriving from various places in the outer fane for this fight -- that way, if things go really well for the party, I can keep the fight going to keep it interesting for them, but if things start to go badly, they'll have opportunity to bail out relatively safely.
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Killiak
Briar Beast
(3/2/04 10:53 am)
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
Heh, them Celestials are like lawyers. They will charge you for the FULL time they have served you, so that includes downtime.
As for a nice job: have them destroy zuggotmoy's binding altar (or whatever it is). It's not even really important for the campaign, but I can imagine that having a demi-goddess demon of the fungy nastiness on the material plane, even if trapped, is nasty to the LG shiny
BLING BLING 
And it gives the party a chance to die by the hands of fungus! That'll teach em to dry their feet after showering!
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msherman
Briar Beast
(3/2/04 11:52 am)
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
Hey, that's a _great_ idea. It's been sounding to me like my players are thinking of skipping the inner fane, and going straight to the recovered temple to kill the champion. This'll give them a good reason to come back and fight the First after they've saved the world.
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Killiak
Briar Beast
(3/2/04 12:12 pm)
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
Indeed. And it might give you a great hook for a follow-up campaign regarding Zuggotmoy. (I always wanted to traverse the lower planes, as a DM that is )
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 Infiniti2000
Night Beast
(3/2/04 2:21 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
1. Does the deity realize the importance of the mission? If so (Tharizdun supposedly clouds even the minds of deities), then definitely send the astral deva. I use a houserule that limits planar ally spells to be HD and CR by the caster level. I'd suggest a similar thing, otherwise Hedrack could obtain a kelvezu demon (a big offender IMO). This is particularly important for the bad guys who get Dark Pact and don't have to pay for it. Btw, is Satau still alive? Maybe he would have warned Hedrack and he could do his own planar ally, someone to combat the astral deva?
2. The time begins immediately, no question about this.
3. Great ideas above. I really the like plan of getting the talisman of pure good and delivering it to the solar. Not only does that get them into the Inner Fane, but also gets them to go to the gate in Unariq's chamber. It's a loss of a powerful item, however, so perhaps the Solar will reward them with a wish, permanency, and/or miracle.
4. If the planar ally goes into battle, it will use every ability it has. If the attack fails the ally dies, it dies permanently. It has its own life to think about and if assisting neutral-aligned allies will help it succeed, it will definitely do so. This is why I advise against the deva, because holy aura is an extremely powerful ability to just pass around. 5 free 8th level spells definitely puts the odds in their favor.
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Cordo Crowfoot
(3/2/04 4:57 pm)
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
You can address the Kelvezu issue by having the required payment of a Kelvezu be much higher than a typical demon of that HD.
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Cordo Crowfoot
(3/3/04 7:46 am)
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
Just reading over this, I think I would go for the Leonal. It seems like memories of the combat would be better if it were "Man, that last battle against Hedrack and Thrommel was a real rush. We really pulled together as a team. If that Leonal hadn't made some critical heals, who knows we may have been toast." vs. "Man, we sat back and the celestial did the job for us. Planar Ally sure is a powerful spell."
In other words the Leonal would be helping the players accomplish things on their own while the deva might steal the limelight.
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msherman
Briar Beast
(3/3/04 8:07 am)
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
You know, that's a great point, Cordo. I think I'll adopt I2k's house rule, and give them the Leonal -- when Hamish hits level 14, he can get a Deva, when its less likely to steal the show. (Hmm... critical heal? Is that when he rolls a 20 on his touch attack to deliver a Cure spell and heals double hp?  )
I'm definitely not going to go with the suggestion that Satau warns Hedrack to call his own Planar Ally -- Satau is quite disloyal to Hedrack IMC (I'm basing that on the great Vader/Lando scene I2k wrote up), so there's no reason he'd warn him. He does know about it, though... Hedrack just never thought to ask him.
Since Satau knows about the fight in advance, I think I might have him show up near the end, waiting to see which way the chips fall, and have him throw in with whoever looks likely to win.
On a related note: if the party asks the ally for help crossing the stalagos, does anyone know any Huge flying monster with 10 or fewer HD that the Leonal can polymorph into?
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Infiniti2000
Night Beast
(3/3/04 8:10 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
"You can address the Kelvezu issue by having the required payment of a Kelvezu be much higher than a typical demon of that HD."
Not with Dark Pact. It is free either way. And, if you plan to houserule the payment to be higher, it's much better to target the symptom of the problem and not allow high CR creatures to be called. This is of course IMO.
"Just reading over this, I think I would go for the Leonal."
I agree with you. There might be similar choices like advanced good guys (advanced celestial beings from the monster summoning list would be pretty cool). If you do use an uber good guy like an astral deva, I'd have Hedrack get his own help.
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msherman
Briar Beast
(3/3/04 8:13 am)
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
Heh, I deal with the Kelvezu issue by simply not owning whatever book it happens to be published in. I'm guessing BoVD? We're playing a core books (+ inevitable house rules) game.
Edited by: msherman at: 3/3/04 8:20 am
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Infiniti2000
Night Beast
(3/3/04 8:18 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
It's in the MMII. Anyway, some day you'll own other books and have to deal with this issue. But, no one plays a core rules only game. There are always minor houserules here and there.
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Cordo Crowfoot
(3/3/04 4:50 pm)
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
Hedrack doesn't have access to unholy pact though does he? And by the time the players start facing off against the Triad they should be able to handle a Kelvezu.
Also I don't really consider making a Kelvezu's payment higher to be a house rule, as the spell description makes it clear that the monetary amounts are just guidelines, both in the "payment can take a variety of forms" (not always in the caster's favor) and "an especially hazardous task might require a greater gift".
Kelvezu's standards for gifts are higher and their interpretation of hazardous task is more strict.
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Infiniti2000
Night Beast
(3/4/04 7:21 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
"And by the time the players start facing off against the Triad they should be able to handle a Kelvezu."
IIRC, a kelvezu is CR18. Technically, it should be able to wipe out the party without a sweat. It is a higher CR than anything else in the module. For a 12th level cleric (it has 12HD) to call it is ridiculous. Okay, so maybe Hedrack doesn't have Dark Pact, but there are other Doomdreamers that are not the Triad. Even so, I think the payment is more than worth it to gain such a valuable ally, even for one combat.
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Cordo Crowfoot
(3/5/04 6:22 am)
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Re: Planar Ally for the good guys
Actually only The First and The Second qualify for that particular Doomdreamer Secret. (Doomdreamer level + Int bonus 7 or greater required). So yeah they would have to be facing the Triad.
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