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Author
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Comment
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msherman
Briar Beast
(4/18/04 7:45 pm)
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Disarming -- literally?
[This should go in the Rules forum, but it's a bit of a spoiler for my game, and one of my players reads there.]
Can anyone suggest a mechanic for attempting to chop off someone's arm during combat? With Cyr currently wearing the Air Binder, if he's still wearing it when the party arrives in the Recovered Temple for the final battle, I'd like to have the First have discovered that fact with a Dark Communion, and instructed Imix to Disarm him, literally, so that the Champion can steal the ring and release Yan-C-Bin.
Off the top of my head, a Sunder attack, treating the forearm as having Hardness of Con and HP of Con? Does that seem at all reasonable?
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Thrommel
Runechild (mod)
Council of Magisters
(4/18/04 8:13 pm)
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
I think any kind of rules you come up with will feel like a kludge and unless the players specifically get to use the tactic first, they're probably going to feel cheated.
Now if you have some sort of rule-bending mechanic like Hero Points, I'd say it's cool to have a villain burn one to make something like that happen, but otherwise the standard D&D system does not model these types of called shots very well.
-Thrommel, who has to bury his hero points in his own grave dirt for three days instead of burning them.
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 Infiniti2000
Night Beast
(4/18/04 8:21 pm)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
Do not even consider dis-arming an option. It might sound fun at first, but without a doubt it will ruin your game. To remove the ring per core rules, Imix could grapple Cyr, pin him, and then remove the ring via disarm. Check out the grapple rules for more specifics. Called shots (which is what you are trying to do) should never be allowed.
For alternate suggestions, perhaps the Champion can 'call' any binder to him if within 120ft as a full round action. I'd say the current holder of the binder might get a DC 20-something Will save to resist. I can almost guarantee you that this would freak out Cyr's player more than the grapple, and IMO isn't too ridiculous (he's the Champion for a reason).
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msherman
Briar Beast
(4/18/04 8:41 pm)
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
Yeah, you guys are probably very right. Thanks for the tips. I'll think about the calling... Rather than a full round action, maybe a 1 round action might be better -- that gives Cyr (and others, if he chooses to share the info) a round of actions to panic/prevent the calling. (Yuck. I hate that terminology. "1 round" vs "full round". The longer one actually sounds shorter.)
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amerigoV
Staj
(4/19/04 4:35 am)
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
If you can get that character to a Helpless state (say using a Hold Person or if they fall below 0 HP), have Imix Coup De Grace the PC. Instead of killing the PC, he severs the arm (of course, it MIGHT kill them anyway).
I don't think you will get much of a rules push-back from this approach. If the PC was Helpless via a Hold Person, then just point out that Imix could have killed him instead of just ripping his arm off. Also, it would make a rather dramatic scene.
Something else you might consider is swapping out Imix's Wall of Fire and replace it with Chains of Vengeance from Monte's Book of Eldridge Might. It is a fire based spell that renders the target helpless if they miss a save. This would help with the above approach.
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Infiniti2000
Night Beast
(4/19/04 5:49 am)
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ezSupporter
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
Well, the problem with ripping his arm off is that it immediately hinders the use of a raise dead. I'd be okay with a CDG and then an action to rip off his arm, and I'm sure your players would, but I would tend towards caution before dismembering PC's during the game. I can guarantee you that they will want to do it, too, and then it will escalate and you will not be able to adequately justify why someone can't just do the same with the opponent's head.
A full round would be okay, but I'd make it a supernatural ability so that it doesn't provoke an AoO. Cyr doesn't make the save until the full round is over, though, so they might not realize what's up unless you drop them some hints. Will the binder recognize the Champion, though, and perhaps not function for Cyr if it is in the process of being 'called'? Interesting ideas. I'm not 100% on whether to screw the player over about the binder like this, but if you work out right, it might be a big bonus.
Another idea is that maybe Cyr has the potential to replace the Champion? Say that the Cyr makes his Will save and, instead, draws the Fire Binder to him.
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msherman
Briar Beast
(4/19/04 6:00 am)
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
I was thinking of a scene like this: when the champion's turn comes up, he points at Cyr, and laughs maniacally. "Aha! It is the keeper of the Air Binder, as foretold by the First in his Dark Communion! Thank you for bringing me the key to Yan-C-Bin's prison, hapless mortal! Muahahaha!" Cyr feels the "ring of feather fall" begin to jiggle on his ring finger. What do you do?
At the start of the Champion's next turn, assuming that the Champion hasn't been disabled/killed in the intervening round, Cyr fails* the will save and loses the ring.
* By then, I have no doubt that he'll have a wisdom of something like 4, and will certainly fail the save. 
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N1njato
Staj
(4/19/04 6:12 am)
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
IMO not being able to dismember or take off limbs is incredibly unrealistic. I don't/won't allow players to do it in combat, and the reasoning is like this: "You're basically *always* trying to take off limbs. That's what criticals represent, when you actually get lucky and hit the vital spot you're aiming for", but on the other hand, when I character is helpless or even dead, it makes no sense why anyone couldn't dismember a creature. The problem with not being able to Raise Dead, IMO, is minimal. Not every PC is going to have the time to dismember every creature they kill, and there's always Resurrection or True Resurrection if all else fails, meaning if that NPC is *really* important to the campaign or story, then they can be brought back anytime.
And for NPC's doing it to PC's, it's the DM who decides whether or not NPC's would take their time to chop up/eat bodies etc. I think that's the whole point of having different types of Raise spells, otherwise they'd all be the same power.
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Infiniti2000
Night Beast
(4/19/04 7:02 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
Realism or not, it's D&D and supposed to be fun. If you play a Grim&Gritty system and it works for you, okay. But, it's not a part of D&D and shouldn't be, because for the most part it sucks. For example, per the rules being helpless you have the chance to survive a coup de grace. That means you can survive a dagger in the heart, or wherever that automatic critical goes. But, you have no chance to not get cut up? Anyway, there's no way such a dismembering rule would be fun and I guarantee the players will start using it ALL THE TIME. How can you explain that you can cut off someone's arm but not head? And, if you cut off the head isn't that better than CDG? There's no solution that works.
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N1njato
Staj
(4/19/04 7:18 am)
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
The suggestion earlier was to replace 'death' recieved by a coup de grace with chopping off a limb. So you would still have a chance at not having the limb severed.
Even a dagger to the heart or whatever that you somehow manage to survive doesn't mean you'd survive the following one. If you survive and they check your pulse or whatever, and you're still alive, what's to stop a second one from coming? That will assuredly kill you if the first one didn't.
Remember I don't allow this during combat, because I see the sense of not allowing it during a fight. But I still can't imagine how nothing could ever get something chopped off. It's like you could never buy a leg of chicken at the inn for dinner, because nothing could ever lose a limb. And the hand/eye of vecna shouldn't be possible either, because those parts could never be separated from the body using these rules 
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amerigoV
Staj
(4/19/04 9:07 am)
Reply
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
Infiniti states:
Quote:
Realism or not, it's D&D and supposed to be fun. If you play a Grim&Gritty system and it works for you, okay. But, it's not a part of D&D and shouldn't be, because for the most part it sucks. For example, per the rules being helpless you have the chance to survive a coup de grace. That means you can survive a dagger in the heart, or wherever that automatic critical goes. But, you have no chance to not get cut up? Anyway, there's no way such a dismembering rule would be fun and I guarantee the players will start using it ALL THE TIME. How can you explain that you can cut off someone's arm but not head? And, if you cut off the head isn't that better than CDG? There's no solution that works.
I agree one has to be careful in this situation. My suggestion is an alternative that allows the effect MSHERMAN is looking for without causing too much in the way of rules disruption. Using the CDG rules (including the Fort saving throw) is not unreasonable IMHO. This is a case of careful adjudication as it is not directly covered in the rules. This is exactly why the GM is there.
Now, here is why I do not think this is out of balance:
1) Lets face it, CDG is not supposed to be fun. This is an alternative to outright killing the PC when they are Helpless. Unless the damage kills them, they will survive the encounter (the Fort save indicates if the limb came off or not).
2) This really is no different than normal CDG. How would most people describe the CDG action? Most would describe it as cutting off someone's head. In this case, a different limb is targeted.
3) It will cost them a Regenerate spell (7th level) to be fully functional again. If they die, it is a Resurrection spell (also 7th level). Under v3.5, it is actually cheaper this route as Raise Dead (5th level) costs 6,125gp and Regenerate cost 2,275gp. Under v3.0, Raise Dead is 1,625gp and Regenerate is 2,275gp -- only a 600gp difference.
4) Imix is Gargantuan with a Strength of 26. This alone makes the action reasonable against a helpless Medium target.
5) This is the climatic battle of the adventure. These PCs may not even be used again. There is nothing wrong with saying afterwords that this was a one-time mechanic.
6) I really do not see this as being something that the players would view as an advantage if they did it. It is part of the the CDG, not something they can do in combat. The target has to be helpless. Besides, there might be alignment issues for PCs (dismembering people whilst they are alive I would consider an evil act). It is this type of action that makes evil creatures evil.
7) Besides, they can go back to the Outer Fane and get a new limb for free via the Infernal Device 
As a GM, I would use this approach very rarely. I agree the game is supposed to be fun. But on the other hand, this is the type of evil act that lets the players know what evil is all about. This is a once-in-a-campaign event by the bad guys, not every time a PC goes negative.
Edited by: amerigoV at: 4/19/04 9:11 am
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Thrommel
Runechild (mod)
Council of Magisters
(4/19/04 9:39 am)
Reply
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
A different way to approach the question is to ask yourself what serves the story better.
I personally think that chopping off an arm is really too simple and direct. There's not a lot of nuance there.
On the other hand, I think you'll get a much bigger response from your players if you point out that there are consequences to bringing a major artifact of evil into the midst of a ritual on an unholy site.
The struggle of "will Cyr serve good or evil" is much more interesting and complex than "will Cyr's arm stay attached to his body".
-Thrommel, who's wrestled with both of those questions at one time or another.
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srmilich
Staj
(4/20/04 10:11 am)
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
I personally like the idea of a will save myself...if Imix just starts chopping off limbs willy nilly you are gonna find Cyr's player kinda pissed...he has just been relegated to a spectator for the rest of the combat. All because he lost the item lottery and started wearing the binder.
If you really want to include limb loss in combat, there was a variant rule one DM included in his Star Wars D20 game. He wanted to include arms being chopped off in melee, much like what happens in every Star Wars movie bar the Phantom Menace. At first he houseruled that a critical hit could result in loss of limbs, much like some of you are already stating.
Then he realised that via the critical system, a Tusken raider was much more likely to cut off someones limb than a Jedi with a lightsaber! He reworked the rule that a limb was cut off whenever a critical hit occurred that dropped the victim to exactly 0 hit points (ie staggered). Just as in the movies, the victim can sit and talk, but not do much else.
This means that the chance of a limb being removed doesn't happen once a combat, (as can happen with some ppl and their weighted dice  ), and will be remembered on the odd occasion it does happen.
Cheers, Simon.
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Caedrel
Ghoul Worm
(4/20/04 7:34 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: Disarming -- literally?
I'm still not comfortable with this either: being at 0 hp means the PC is likely to survive the encounter and then subsequently be missing the limb until they get a regenerate spell.
You'd therefore have to come up with a stack of other rules, and have to deal with questions like: Does it affect his Strength score for lifting things? Does it affect his Dexterity score for certain skill checks, like Open Locks or Disable Device? How about Balance checks? Swim checks? Will it affect his Charisma score for Diplomacy checks with NPCs? If he loses his right arm and he's right handed, does he suffer the off hand penalties for two weapon fighting? etc etc etc
You'd have to deal with these situations even if you allow a limb to be severed instead of a CDG being applied to a Helpless character.
An regarding alternatives, how about making it opposed Charisma checks between Cyr and the Champion? Lareth could get some circumstance bonuses from being the Champion, but that seems to better describe the struggle of wills than a Will save.
Caedrel, who thinks Thrommel must be a very good wrestler if he can do it with a missing limb
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LostSoul
Staj
(4/21/04 12:51 pm)
Reply
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Off with his head
There was a rule in the d6 version of Star Wars that said that when you scored a "Kill", you could decide to chop off a body part instead. Exactly like the Luke vs. Vader scene in Empire. You could use the same rule in D&D - once the PC is down to -10 or less, Imix hacks off his arm. I'd leave the PC alive at 0, because then he can cry about it, but you could also leave him stabilized at -9.
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