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Thrommel
Registered User
(4/23/02 6:38 am)
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Re: Another question
I've muddled through this issue myself and also came to the conclusion that it's BEFORE you are raised.
In most cases this is beneficial to the player. (I've had two players level during a session and die, IIRC.)
The thing that stings my players is the rigid "drop back a level and lose half the XP" rule for being raised. In the case where you're only 200 xp from levelling, if you die it's more like losing one and a half levels. And the problem is only exacerbated at higher levels.
I'm thinking about implementing a houserule that you lose XP equal to the amount you need to level. That way if you're almost 10th, and you die, you're going to be almost 9th when you're raised. A little more fair than being half-way to ninth.
-Thrommel, who likes to sting the players with the monsters, not the rules.
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ronin
Registered User
(4/23/02 5:57 pm)
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re: another question
This very subject is actually covered in the DMG and it's stated clearly on page 169. It basically says you get the XP after you are raised and lose a level if that is appropriate.
I have had a few PCs die and even had one die twice with the same PC. I can say they (players) absolutely hate this rule. I have thought about it and it seems that either way you go eventually someone gets hosed.
If you gain a level by getting XP before being raised then its good, but if you dont then you basically just lose those XP altogether (if you award them before raising the PC of course). I honestly couldnt see the advantage of going either way, even at higher levels it all depends on how close you are to gaining that next level.
Is one way right or wrong? According to the rules as written the answer is yes. Does it make a difference over the long haul? Dont know really.
ronin
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DM Dan76
Registered User
(5/8/02 5:36 am)
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Re: A few questions.....
The Stalwart Eye (the little magical bird statue) that Dunrat had has finally been identified by the PC's. After finding out what it can do they have decided to use it themselves.
Now the description of the item is fine in regards to everything except sight. What kind of vision does the bird have? Does it have regualr vision, low-light vision, darkvision or does it depend on who is using it and what type of vision they have?
The character who will be using it is an elf, who has a pair of nightvision goggles, so if depends on the user then she has all the bases covered. If it depends on the type of vision the bird has then what do I tell her? If I had to guess I'd say at best it would have low-light vision, but probably just regular vision.
Did anyone else have the PC's use this item? If so how did you work it?
Thanks.
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Siobharek 
Registered User
(5/8/02 5:46 am)
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Re: A few questions.....
I'd run it as if it were an Arcane Eye spell. Anything the user does to improve his eyesight will work on the bird.
Hope that helps.
Siobharek
Denmark
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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DM Dan76
A resident
(6/6/02 5:03 am)
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Re: A few questions.....
I have a question about the drug that Tal sells, the Tranbrosh, or however you spell it.
How long do the effects last?
How much would you have to take to overdose?
How would you determine an overdose?
My PC's have just encountered it and so far they love the effect. Even the paladin in the group wants to use it (one pc has only just taken it and that's where we ended the session).
Thanks for the help!
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Cordo Crowfoot
A resident
(6/6/02 9:48 pm)
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Re: Another question
Quote:
I'm thinking about implementing a houserule that you lose XP equal to the amount you need to level. That way if you're almost 10th, and you die, you're going to be almost 9th when you're raised. A little more fair than being half-way to ninth.
I've done a lot of thinking on this myself. Since my group only plays twice a month, a death right before a level could mean playing several months to get back to where you were at.
But "losing XP equal to the amount you need to level" will be problematic in two situations:
a) Level 2 character with 1100 xp dies. He needs 2000 xp to level so now has -900 xp?
b) Anyone in the first half of their level is penalized more than they would be with the old rule. For example, character who just leveled to 10th level and has 45,100 xp would only go down to 40,500 xp on a death with the old rule, but if they lose 10,000 xp (what they need to level to 11) they will be at 35,100 xp and will actually be 8th level again!
There are several ways to address this.
1) Keep the "go back to the midpoint of the previous level" but say that the experience needed to level is the maximum you can lose. That would keep characters from losing a level and a half when they are right on the cusp.
2) Keep the flat xp loss, but make it half the XP you need to level. Then only rarely will characters lose more in the old system (only if they are in the first 500 xp of their level). The drawback to this in turn is that if they are in the top half of their experience bracket, they won't lose a level at all.
I'm going with 2 IMC as due to the infrequency of play, any experience loss at all will be keenly felt by the players.
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Cordo Crowfoot
A resident
(6/6/02 9:54 pm)
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Re: Another question
Here is a quick analysis I ran in Excel...
level experince required max potential loss min potential loss
1 0
2 1000 2499 500
3 3000 3999 1000
4 6000 5499 1500
5 10000 6999 2000
6 15000 8499 2500
7 21000 9999 3000
8 28000 11499 3500
9 36000 12999 4000
10 45000 14499 4500
11 55000 15999 5000
12 66000 17499 5500
13 78000 18999 6000
14 91000 20499 6500
15 105000 21999 7000
16 120000 23499 7500
17 136000 24999 8000
18 153000 26499 8500
19 171000 27999 9000
20 190000
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Siobharek
A resident
(6/7/02 12:26 am)
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Tanbrosh
I'd have the beneficial effects last 8 hours and the negative effects (-2 Wis) last all the time.
But a paladin drugging himself up?! Whoa.... You might want to think about some church policies there.
Also, enforce the -2 wisdom penalty. These guys will feel stronger, true, but that feeling of strength makes them overconfident and rash. Ask for wisdom checks if they want to be really sensible.
Oh, and have the CRM bad guys find out what happened, and have them burn the raw materials for Tanbrosh. Also, how long does it take to make Tanbrosh (I don't assume they're buying it from Tal, because then he can end the threat to the CRM immediately)
Regarding OD: If you try taking more Tanbrosh than once every 24 hrs, then you slip into a coma as per the first stage of withdrawal.
Other than that, I must admit I haven't though too much about ODing on Tanbrosh. Maybe someone else has...
Siobharek
Denmark
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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Taxman
A visitor
(6/7/02 4:57 am)
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Level Loss
Here are my current house rules regarding level loss...
A character who looses a level will have the same proportion of experience points required to gain the next level that he had at the time prior to loosing the level, instead of being put at the midway point. For example if a character is 95% of the way to 7th level (19,950 exp) at the time he looses a level he will then be placed 95% of the way to 6th level (14,250 exp).
Level loss applies to the most recent level(s) gained.
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DM Dan76
A resident
(6/7/02 5:10 am)
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Re: Tanbrosh
Thanks for the info on tanbrosh. The book never really stated how long the effects lasted. 8 hours sounds good, and the -2 wis penalty lasting all the time sounds great.
The only player to have used it was the halfling rogue, and he just took a dose before we ended for the night. After he told the rest of the group about the "effects" the player of the human paladin (it's actually Xaod) figured that the benifits outweighed the negitives (of what they knew at that point anyway). He hasn't used it yet.
Now I am not sure how to play the paladin on drugs thing if he decides to use it. The taking of drugs isn't necessarily an evil act, and depending on local law ans customs, it may not be illegal either. So depending on how lineate I decide to be, it is neither an evil nor unlawful thing to do. And the PC is Xaod, so I figure that he is not that strict on the rules anyway.
They have just bought 20 doses from Tal, and have just gotten into town and have not yet gone up to the crater ridge mines. I had them come to town as caravan gaurds, so they haven't yet revealed their intentions regarding the cultists.
Thanks for the help!
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Siobharek
A resident
(6/7/02 5:26 am)
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Re: Tanbrosh
20 doses... That will actually make them independent of Tal for quite a while. That may not be in Tal's best interest. He wants addicts, preferably addicts who have to come back often.
If I were him I'd sell just one dose, and then when the next day came round, I'd know whether the person who bought it had taken the drug. Also, he needs his doses for the town addicts.
If you agree, then perhaps some or all of the other 19 doses are just harmless herbs. If not, well, then your party has 20 doses 
You're right that drug use isn't necessarily evil or chaotic. It does, however, put the user at the mercy of others in a way that drinking may not do. Doing that can't be good for paladins. Depending on how you look at it, Xaod isn't an out-and-out alcoholic, so getting a tanbrosh dependency is definitely worse than getting drunk at The Welcome Wench.
Siobharek
Denmark
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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Trithereon
A resident
(6/7/02 6:23 am)
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Re: Tanbrosh
I don't know if this helps in the roleplaying aspect of tanbrosh, but IMC I had tanbrosh a D&D-boosted verion of cocaine. That is local miners chew the native leaves of tanbrosh for its relatively minor effects (increased alertness, some increase in stamina). In its leaf form, it is only moderately addictive and certainly not deadly.
The tanbrosh that Tal sells is a refined product. Its potency has been increased many-fold as has its addictiveness and with it the deadliness of withdrawls.
Locals chewing tanbrosh leaves has no social stigma, nor legal ramifications. The refined tanbrosh is new "invention" of Tal's and has only recently begun to make inroads into Rastor life. The miners that do use it LOVE it, as do some labor chiefs, for its effects. There has yet to be a supply shortage of refined tanbrosh for it to become a serious social problem.
Heck, my players haven't even realized it exists ... they have only spent one night in Rastor.
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Siobharek
A resident
(6/7/02 6:26 am)
Reply
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Re: Tanbrosh
Oh, Trithereon. Had you only posted that before last Sunday, where my PCs put the smack on Tal's dope plans. DAMN, that's a good idea!
Oh well, someone else can surely use that.
Siobharek
Denmark
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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DM Dan76
A resident
(6/11/02 5:36 am)
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Re: The Death of Tal....
Well my PC's have gone and done it.
They Murdered Tal last night. Not 2 full days in town and they killed Tal.
It happened like this....
The PC's spotted a group heading down from the temple (2 clerics and 3 warriors), that were coming into town to get supplies. The PC's jumped the clerics as they were leaving town. Heck they were barely out of town before they started the fight. Luckily an obscuring mist covered most of the action from the sight of the townsfolk.
Then they decide to pay the drug dealer a visit. Now not everyone in the group thought that Tal was involved with the cult. Only 4 of my 6 players even decided to go to Tal's to "question" him. Ranx (halfling rogue) and Jeffrey (halfelf ftr/sor) went in while of all people Xaod watched the front door and Snaggletooth ( LN cleric) watched the back door.
Ranx went in under the guise of wanting to buy more drugs. As Tal was handing over his last 5 doses Ranx sneak attacked him and easily killed him. Their cover story to Xaod and Snaggletooth was that Tal attacked them. After searching the house for clues that would tie Tal in with the cult, they found nothing. Ranx and Jeffrey took what money they could find and a few remaing doses of Tanbrosh. Xaod and Snaggletooth then left to meet up with the rest of the group, but Ranx and Jeffrey stayed behind. They then proceeded to completely loot the shop filling up a small cart with goods and then doused the place in oil and set it on fire. They wanted it to look like an accident, like Tal fell asleep while smoking kind of thing.
So now I run into my problem.....
What will the people of Rastor do. They have seen the PC's fighting a group of robed men on the outskits of town, and then fleeing into the woods (all but Xaod and Aust; elf ftr/wiz). Later that day Tal's store goes up in flames. I'm sure that Xaod and Snaggletooth were seen walking out of the front door. Perhaps Ranx and Jeffrey were spotted fleeing with a wagon full of loot just as the building started burning.
I do not know how to handle this situation. Do I have the authorities in town come after them? I'm sure that there will be quite a few deaths in town now that Tal is gone, and could those be linked to the PC's as well? What kind of trouble have they gotten themselves into?
Thanks for the help. Your suggestions are always appreciated.
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Siobharek
A resident
(6/11/02 6:25 am)
Reply
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Re: The Death of Tal....
There will be two lines of events that will probably run simultaneously, but start off as being quite independent of each other.
What's All This Then?
Jardeth the constable will start looking for clues. He might ask Rerrid Hammersong for help. Rerrid could Summon a Fire Elemental, cast Tongues, and ask it what it could tell him about the fire. That elemental would certainly be able to tell the priest about fuel, where the fire started, etc. Speak with the Dead on Tal could also be an option.
If convinced of their guilt, Jardeth will try to arrest the PCs, making sure that he can get away if the group turns beligerent. Then he'll go to Rerrid and to the orc camp for help. At which point the group will have quite a fight on their hands.
Bear also in mind that Tal fulfilled a very important function in town. Where will people go to trade now? Lots of stuff will be missing, and - depending on what Rerrid and Jardeth uncover - the PCs will be blamed.
Give Us Some Dope, Man...
Some townsfolks will come out in defense of the group and give them alibis. Why? Because they know that the PCs are their only chance of getting some tanbrosh (assume that about half the addicts have some tanbrosh - otherwise they'll all keel over and die after 24 hours).
If the PCs refuse to give them any, this group will turn very nasty and basically try to kill them any way they can.
In the end, the PCs (and their players) should realize that they messed up. Bad. They comitted murder in the only friendly town for miles and there will be consequences. Have fun, and let us know how it turns out.
Siobharek
Denmark
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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Trithereon
A resident
(6/11/02 6:38 am)
Reply
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Re: The Death of Tal....
"What kind of trouble have they gotten themselves into?"
Oh, you know your basic murder, arson, burglary and evasion of the law.
They are outlaws and on the run. Ouch!
Edited by: Trithereon at: 6/11/02 6:40:17 am
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Thrommel
A resident
(6/11/02 6:45 am)
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Re: The Death of Tal....
Well, Rerrid is the peacekeeper in town, but he's not addicted to Tanbrosh (and thus not beholden to Tal in any way). In fact, I doubt he knows just what the stuff does. He may not have even heard of it for that matter - I think the addicts would keep it pretty well secret.
However, burning down buildings is still a criminal act. So I would think he would want to pay the PC's a visit and find out what their alibi is. (Of course he's prepped Zone of Truth.) This could be an interesting RP session - especially when the thief and half-elf have to admit the truth in front of the paladin.
What kind of justice will Rerrid want? He'll at least want the loot back. Plus there's going to be some sort of fine for burning down the building. And if he gets them to admit to murdering Tal -- well I'd say that's AT LEAST banishment from the village.
I see Rerrid as a LG type, but also a guy who's smart enough to know that he can't beat the cult, so he tries not to antagonize them. The party is a threat to the unsteady peace of the village, so he won't hesitate to kick them out if they start stirring up trouble.
Now, he knows nothing about the Tanbrosh, so when people start dying, that's just some sort of unfortunate sickness that's sweeping through the village.
To him anyway. The addicts themselves are MUCH more desperate. They can put two and two together and they start seeking out the party (wherever they are). First they offer money for some Tanbrosh. Then they beg and plead. If that doesn't work they become angry and violent and try to attack the party in their sleep.
IMC, the Tanbrosh addicts are hooked in the worst way. They are NOT rational but they are relentless. Everything they say or do is related to getting more of the drug. If you give them some, you're their best friend -- for the next six hours. After that they start needling you about getting more. Then they start whining and pleading until finally they're carrying on like it's the end of the world -- which it is, for them.
Hopefully their behavior alone will frighten the bejeezus out of the PC's who've gone so far as to TAKE the drug.
-Thrommel, who had his bejeezus taken out in 7th grade.
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ronin
A resident
(6/11/02 6:20 pm)
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Re: The Death of Tal....
I also had a PC who murdered Tal, but he did it without the other party members knowledge.
A PC tried tanbrosh and liked the effects (in the beginning). The next morning he was furious and wanted to kill Tal and made no secret of it. At this point the others told him to let it go and he acted like he would. They then set off for the CRM.
After returning from the CRM he said he needed to take care of some business as did some of the other PCs so they split up for about 2 weeks. During this time he staked out the orc village where he believed Tal was hiding out (which he was from the PCs). Tal eventually came outside the village and this PC killed him.
He then went back and joined the others in town. Tal's body wasn't found for awhile (he hid it somewhat) and when it was I had the chief of the orcs tell Rerrid that he wanted the PCs charged with murder unless they settled this up with Tal's family (which they said were staying at the orc village).
Rerrid presented this to the leader of the party (a paladin) in this way: "I realize they have no proof but they are threatening to cease trade with our village if the situation isn't handled properly". This ended up costing the party some gold (around 2000 GP I think) and some anger. To this day they still dont know for sure that the PC killed Tal.
The other thing they did was to come up with an antidote for the addiction and while part of the group went away to sell loot the party mage and priest stayed to care for the addicted townsfolk.
This is different from the circumstances in your game since no one ever got caught in the act of murdering Tal but maybe the info can help you out in some way.
Let us know how it turns out.
ronin
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Abelard
A resident
(6/11/02 6:40 pm)
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Goodness!
My party will begin investigating Rastor next session.
Monte only knows what a mess they'll make of Tal and the tanbrosh situation. I was planning to keep that pretty low-key at first so they don't get sidetracked right away, but their actions and investigations might bring them right into the center of it without any help from me! (I think I will use Trithereon's "coca leaf" idea to muddy the waters a little.)
I know they plan to send in the rogue as an invisible flying silent scout first. Then they will send in one of the more (allegedly) diplomatic members of the party solo. I'm not sure exactly what he's gonna do or ask but I think the idea is that he will be less conspicious than the whole group. (Knowing the character and the player I have my doubts about that!)
Any suggestions about how to run this? Which aspects of Rastor are immediately obvious and/or would stand out most to an unobserved aerial scout?
I'm thinking he could easily discover the nearby orc village, perhaps follow someone who's en route there on a trading mission. Any other good stuff you can think of?
As for the second (non invisible, non silent, non flying) guy, I guess it's gonna depend on exactly how he presents himself. I'm planning to just play that by ear, but if you have any general suggestions that might apply, I'd love to hear them!
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Trithereon
A resident
(6/11/02 8:42 pm)
Reply
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Re: Goodness!
Let's be honest here. Rastor is not well developed by Monte. Sure there are some cool NPCs and some interesting sub-plots, but its all bare bones with no connecting tissue or muscle.
I have found that the best places to start fleshing out Rastor is to consider two important aspects of its existance: economics and politics.
For any community to survive it must have an economy, whether agrarian or industrial. So what is the economy of Rastor. IMC, it has been and remains mining. The vast majority of locals are miners, or involved in mine-related activities, who eek out a meager living digging out low-grade ore (mostly iron). Related to the actual ore digging there are the men who run the iron furnaces to smelt the raw ore into iron. Blast furnaces (run by waterwheel bellows) need lots of wood and limestone, so there needs to be wood-cutters and quarrymen. The wood has to be burned down to charcoal, which is done by making big piles of wood and setting it ablaze (the pile needs to be stomped down on occasion, which requires men to climb onto the burning pile and actually stomp, thus compacting, the wood down - a very dangerous profession). There needs to be all the support services that go with such an operation which include food production and transportation services (of the wood, limestone, charcoal, ore and the wrought iron). Finally, there needs to be the managers and owners. All in all, such a production would easily take up the small population of Rastor.
Then there are politics. Who owns Rastor? Verbobonc? Veluna? If we work with a typical serf-model society then someone has been appointed to oversee the iron production of Rastor. Unfortunately, Monte has not provided us with a noble who's in charge. So, we must make one up. This nobel not only "owns" the mines but the furnace and the whole town - there was no concept of private ownership of land. Even this noble doesn't really own it, he just the steward of the land. His stewardship granted by whatever king/viscount holds sway over Rastor.
So ... which political force controls Rastor? It is a far flung, and relaively unimportant little town (low grade iron) but someone has to lay claim to it.
Gotta go, more on this later perhaps.
Anybody else have an idea?
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