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Author
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Comment
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Siobharek 
Orc
(11/6/02 12:56 am)
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Re: re: question
I'd equate paladins' mounts with familiars in the case of raise dead. With regards to the create water, I'f pretty sure that it says that you can't create water inside a creature.....
....yep, from the SRD: Conjuration spells can’t create substances or objects within a creature.
But on top of it, or in front of it... Well, in front of it, you might make enough of a barrier to hinder it. On top of it, I'd say that you created an effect similar to obscuring mist - and maybe inflicted 2d6 damage (Ref save to avoid) - a kind of limited flaming sphere vs. fire elementals.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
DM Dan76
Pie
(11/6/02 6:45 am)
Reply
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Re: re: question
Thanks for the responses, and I'll use your idea for the create water vs the fire elemental Siobharek. It won't really hurt them much, and it would only be useful vs fire elementals.
That brings to mind another situation that may come up. The same druid has a spell called waterball (from Masters of the Wild). It is like fireball but inflict subdual damage to creatures inside the radius. I would have to guess then that this spell would inflict actuall damage vs fire elementals then? Would it inflict double damage, being that it is water?
Also I need some suggestions for a situation that arose last session. The PC's had finally defeated D'Gran, Krall & Slazzh (the 2 trolls). They all lay out cold (from subdual of course) in the hall in front of the raptors room. The druid had flame blade cast and started inflicting the fire damage, and the groups ranger started pouring flasks of oil onto them. They stated that they would spend a couple of minuted on each of them and figured that the damage would be well over 100 hp worth of fire damage, enough to kill them.
Well I totally forgot about D'grans fire resistance and spell resistance. I knew that he couldn't be killed from fire (well he could, but not easily with fire resistance 20) and that he would regenerate in time. The PC's also said that while they were lighting them all on fire, that they would start hacking them into peices.
I gave the PC's the description that yes, the three bodies were indeed choped into multiple peices and were burnt into crispy chunks.
They were satisfied and went on to explore the rest of the complex. I completely forgot that D'gran would not have burnt, and the PC's doing the buring would have noticed that.
Later, when I remembered that I had a regenerating D'gran, I made the PC's make spot checks and they later noticed that the body of D'gran was gone, as according to my plan. It wasn't till the next day I realized my mistake.
So what should I do? Should I explain my mistake to the PC's and say that they didn't notice D'gran not burning, or should I rule that their action were sufficient to kill D'gran, although I personally don't think they were. It was my goof up, and I don't want to punish my players for it. Any suggestions?
Thanks, as always.
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Siobharek
Orc
(11/6/02 6:51 am)
Reply
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Re: re: question
I'd have the waterball inflict full damage on the elemental, but not double, as I'd say that cold plays a part as well.
With regards to D'Gran... Your players seem pretty resourceful, so don't you think they'd eventually come up with drowning him? If you do, then don't say anything, just let them have their victory. Even if you don't I'd be inclined to keep quiet about it, because at this point, after the battle, at a new session, it'll more be an intellectual exercise than anything else.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
 Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/6/02 7:29 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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D'Gran and Create Water
I agree with Siobharek with regards to D'Gran. Going back in time really hurts the storyline and it'll make any victory over D'Gran feel cheap. If it would make you feel better, however, you can just tell them that in fact D'Gran didn't burn until they had the head separated for ten minutes. Remember, they were spending quite a bit of time hacking the bodies. Perhaps they burned the trolls first, giving D'Gran's body ten minutes to die off.
With the Create Water, I would not have it do any damage, or at most 1d3 (equivalent level spell = ray of frost). You can use 1d6 if you equate the elemental to undead (disrupt undead). I like the obscuring mist idea, but reduce the area of effect and make it a one round duration.
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DM Dan76
Pie
(11/6/02 11:47 am)
Reply
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Re: D'Gran and Create Water
Yes my player are quite good at coming up with interesting ways to dispose of their enimies, and no doubt would have eventually thrown him into the water (they still seem to be afraid of even opening the doors to the bridge more than a crack though).
So what are you guys saying? Should I just overlook my mistake and keep the players guessing as to why the body isn't there anymore? They seem to think that "the demon" can even regenerate fire damage, which of course my goof-up would lead them to belive. I had D'Gran sneak invisibly through the orc area and through the air temple on his way to the fire temple, or that was my plan anyway.
Or do I just say "I goofed, the body of "the demon" is still there, quite dead" and chalk it up to a DM mistake, which will fall heavily in the players favor?
Thanks,
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Zagig
Pie
(11/6/02 12:18 pm)
Reply
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Re: D'Gran and Create Water
My suggestion would be to use D'Gran. Whose to say that one of Naquent's or Hedrack's servants didn't take D'Gran's body. I don't know how long it has been since your players killed him, but IMC the bridges and temples have a regular (about once a week) communication with the Outer Fane. If D'Gran missed his appointed talk with the boss, someone would have been sent to see what happened. Since D'Gran is tough, Hedrack chose to raise him and use him against the party. I plan on running this myself, if the party leaves D'Grans body behind.
Zag ig
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Trithereon
Pie
(11/6/02 12:24 pm)
Reply
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Re: A few questions.....
Because Flame Blade does real (not subdual) damage then the druid can, as a full-round action, perform a coup de grace to D'gran. This automatically hits and does critical damage (2d8+2 up to 2d8+20, depending on the druid's level). Even if D'gran survives the damage, he still must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage) or die.
If the druid isn't high enough level for the automatic critical to get past D'gran's fire resistance then you could invoke the unwritten rule of troll killing. Severed limbs or body parts that are not reattached wither and die normally. A severed troll head if not reattached to the body withers and dies normally.
If you players spent several minutes troll-chopping then they eventually severed the head from the neck and assume they kept the pieces separated. Dead D'gran.
Personally, I allow my PC to kill regenerating creatures this way (decapitation) as a head growing a new body seem silly as does a body growing a new head. A headless troll body is inanimate while the troll head is unconscious, so no headless troll searching around for its head to reattach. I find the method simple and sensible.
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Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/6/02 12:30 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: D'Gran and Create Water
That presents a tough question for the DM: can D'Gran be raised? A slain outsider cannot be raised or resurrected, but what about a half-outsider? Hmmm....A miracle would bring him back, but who, really, would do that?
Instead, and I forgot you said that D'Gran's body was missing, I would say that someone has moved the pieces of his body (maybe not all of them?) somewhere else in the hope that D'Gran can be resurrected. When he can't...perhaps the party will stumble upon the burnt body parts and heave a collective sigh of relief! As to why the body burned in the first place, perhaps while hacking the body they kept the head separated for ten minutes and then it started burning.
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DM Dan76
Pie
(11/6/02 2:24 pm)
Reply
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Re: D'Gran....
Well I may have to just retract the "the demons body is missing" statement I made from my players.
The Party killed D'Gran outside the Raptors room, and after rescuing the halfling prisoner (forgot her name), settled down to rest in the wizards room. They posted guards near the doors leading into the room with the throne (#44), and in the room at the end of the hall where Krall first appears (#37). They had all ways in or out blocked.
I didn't remember about D'Gran untill the end of the following day after the battle, while the party was still milling about the complex gathering loot and identifying items.
Unless I say that Hedrack sent one of the invisible stalkers to deliver a message to D'Gran, and upon seeing what had happened, gathered up D'Grans body and snuck out, but that is stretching it a bit. Even though the stalker is invisible, D'Grans body isn't, and the PC's may have seen the body parts float away.
I think I'm stuck here, without resorting to breaking the rules I don't see how D'Gran could have snuck out like I said he did. I may just have to pull my foot out of my mouth and confess my mistake to my players. I think that they would understand, and be relived that they won't have to fight him again.
Again, thanks for the responses.
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Andorax
Orc
(11/6/02 2:28 pm)
Reply
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Re: D'Gran....
I'd say this is a good time to honestly admit your error. Let them know that they, in the "hacking up" process, legitimately killed D'Gran, that his corpse burned, and that it didn't, resultantly, vanish. You made a mistake, and wanted to let them know.
Alternately, if you really, really want to keep that "aura of infallability" about you, you can always fall back on the idea that extraplanar demonic baddies dissolve after they're completely dead, melting away into nothing. This would account for a vanished body while keeping the legitimate kill.
Either way, D'Gran's validly dead.
"Whadda ya mean, Orcs get levels too?!?" |
Nyarlathotep
Pie
(11/6/02 2:53 pm)
Reply
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Can D'Gran be raised?
Can D'Gran be raised?
Using just the core rules, no he can't.
In Manual of the Planes though, there is a spell to raise dead outsiders (don't have my book handy so I'm not too sure what page it's on off the top of my head)
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Zagig
Pie
(11/6/02 11:11 pm)
Reply
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Re: Can D'Gran be raised?
Forgot that outsiders cannot be raised. My bad. Ignore everything I said (it's still a good idea for just about anyone else in the CRM however).
Zag ig
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DM Dan76
Pie
(11/8/02 9:41 am)
Reply
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Re: Another one...
Alrighty here is another question.
In the dwarven temple there is the trap at the door to the treasury, area 67.
Now the 20'x20'x3' block of stone falls and gets a +20 to attack anyone under it. Those hit take 10d6 damage.
What about those that I miss (bad rolling or whatever)?
Characters do not get a reflex save so it's not like they dodge out of the way, so are they just trapped under the block, not taking any damage?
That brings up another thing. Once the block has fallen, what then? The characters who were under it obviously are trapped under it right? Do they take crushing damage each round? This block, which is 1200 cubic feet of stone must weight a fair bit. How the heck would someone get out from under there? Could the PC's even have a chance to lift such a huge weight off their trapped comrades?
Also, once it has fallen, I assume it does not reset itself.
Hey, how much noise would that make? Would the Air temple be able to hear the loud crashing sound? If so, they may be better prepared for the PC's when they show up.
I know that all these questions will come up next session (Monday) and I want to be prepared for them. So far they have set off almost every trap in the place, and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't set this one off.
Thanks Again!
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Trithereon
Pie
(11/8/02 10:37 am)
Reply
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Re: Another one...
1200 cu.ft. of granite (2600 kg/m3) weighs close to 100 english tons (88 metric tons). That is indeed some crushing weight.
I suggest that you make it a very powerful magical trap. Have sixteen 5ft by 5ft by 3ft. blocks of granite fall from the ceiling in the 20ft by 20ft section in front on the door. Each block slides out of its place in the ceiling at a different pace causing a haphazard cascade of 6 ton blocks with a +20 attack bonus to hit on anyone caught in the 20ft by 20ft section in front of the door. The +20 attack against a flat-footed AC means that you'll have to have be either very lucky (1's always miss) or have magic to not be hit. Only a few lucky souls will not get hit.
At least, this gives the impression that those few not hit could have somehow miraculously jumped forward and then back or that their magic had miraculously deflected the falling blocks.
The magically created rock is now permanent and would have to be cleared, and the mess beneath cleaned, by the dwarves. But they'd do the work cheerfully, as it likely meant that some theif got his just rewards. The celing could automatically reset to conjure additional stone blocks, or you could rule that a spellcaster would have to cast some walls of stone to reset it.
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Siobharek
Orc
(11/8/02 1:30 pm)
Reply
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Re: Another one...
I can't really see why a miss can't mean that the PC - thanks to a 6th sense thing - jumps out of the way.
The weight issue is ably answered, so the only thing I can add is that maybe some kind of suffocation damage would be in order. OTOH you'd be justified in stating that the block turns to a lot of rubble, so after a while the other PCs can dig out their squashed friend(s). And (he says, having just checked the module) since there's no mention of damaged PCs being trapped, I'd rule that the slab does indeed break upon striking the floor.
The noise... There are 320' to the nearest air temple guards. And there's a (presumably) closed secret, ie stone, door. That gives a -32 to -37 modifier to any Listen rolls required. And a pitched battle Listen DC is -10, so we're looking at a DC 22-27. If the guards aren't alert, they rolling the equivalent of 5 on their Listen rolls, so your PCs will be fine.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Trithereon
Pie
(11/9/02 3:32 am)
Reply
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Re: Another one...
Quote:
I can't really see why a miss can't mean that the PC - thanks to a 6th sense thing - jumps out of the way.
Taking a look at the map and where the 20x20 foot, single slab would fall. There is a spot where a player would have to make a 20 foot jump to "get out of the way". This may be a stretch for even the most liberal suspension of disbelief.
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DM Dan76
Pie
(11/13/02 6:34 am)
Reply
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What about this idea....
Hi all,
I had an idea that I'd like to run past the gang here.
I was thinking of replacing Victor and Bethe with a single sniper type assassin.
I was thinking about when the time comes for Hedrack to send out the assassins, my party will wipe the floor with either or even both of them. My party is way to melee powerfull. They are also fast. Almost everyone either has boots of striding or the ability to haste, so I can't see Victor or Bethe outrunning my group.
That's where the sniper idea came from. I was thinking of incorporating the Order of the Bow prestige class. That would give him a ranged sneak attack, where he could pick off the party one by one at his pleasure from a good distance.
My players would give chase, but by the time they got to the place where the asassin was, he would be long gone. He would then attempt this every night or so, just taking shots at the party, not even necessarily to kill, but to scare them off.
I do belive that would put the fright into the party a whole lot more than 2 assassins, who in my opinion, my players would wipe out no problem.
So, I guess my question is, is this a good plan? Would it change the module too much?
If I do make the switch, what level should this character be?
Does making the change even make sense or do I just watch too many sniper movies?
Thanks.
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Siobharek
Orc
(11/13/02 7:05 am)
Reply
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Re: What about this idea....
Well you can certainly use the idea. If you've got Song & Silence there's an assassin spell that enables death attacks up to 30' out and sneak attacks up to 60' away.
Siobharek
...it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. |
Infiniti2000
Pie
(11/13/02 7:16 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
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Re: What about this idea....
I think it's a reasonable suggestion, but there also seems to be no harm in trying Victor and Bethe first...maybe both together. I wonder if someone could make a potion of expeditious retreat for each of them; would that make it better? Give them each a scroll of dimension door or teleport.
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DM Dan76
Pie
(11/14/02 8:09 am)
Reply
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Re: What about this idea....
Well I think that I will send out Victor and Bethe first, and see how they do. I will try and play them as smart as possible, waiting untill a single character wanders off alone and striking at them while seperated from the group. They may stand a chance if they use hit and run tactics like that.
If they fail misserably, I will send out Trefelas, a Drow Sniper. I figured that Maracla and Dirass, the drow ambassadors could have arranged for Hedrack to hire this fellow.
Trefalas, Male Drow (Male)
Hit Dice: (1d6)+(6d10)+(6d10)+(1d6)
Hit Points: 100
Initiative: +12
Speed: Walk 30'
AC: 23
Attacks: Longbow +2 (+3 Mighty/Composite/Keen/Spell Effect (Use Activated;[True Strike] +26/+21/+16;
Damage: Longbow +2 (+3 Mighty/Composite/Keen/Spell Effect (Use Activated;[True Strike] 1d8+7;
Face\Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft.\5
Special Qualities: Automatic Search check if within 5' of secret/concealed door,Close Combat Shot,Dancing Lights/Darkness/Faerie Fire 1/day(Sp),Death Attack (DC 13),Free Attack,Immunity to Sleep(Ex),Light Blindness(Ex),Poison Use,Poisoned Arrows(Ex),Ranged Sneak Attack +6d6,Sneak Attack +2d6,Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
Saves: Fortitude: +7, Reflex: +19, Will: +9
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 26, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: Balance 13; Climb 8; Disguise 4; Escape Artist 8;Hide 33; Jump 18; Knowledge (Religion) 5; Listen 8; Move Silently 33; Open Lock 12; Search 9; Spot 18; Tumble 14;
Feats: Deflect Arrows,Improved Critical (Longbow (Composite)),Improved Initiative,Improved Unarmed Strike,Point Blank Shot,Precise Shot,Rapid Shot,Sharp-Shooting,Superior Weapon Focus (Longbow(Composite)),Weapon Focus (Longbow (Composite)),Weapon Specialization (Longbow (Composite)),Zen Archery
Challenge Rating: 15
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Possessions: Snipers Headband*; Longbow +2 (+3 Mighty/Composite/Keen/Spell Effect (Use Activated;[TrueStrike]);Gloves of Dexterity +4; Bracers of Archery; Chain Shirt +1 (Mithral/Shadow/Silent Moves); Cloak of Elvenkind; Arrows (50/Masterwork); Ring (Sustenance); Ring +2 (Protection); Boots of Striding and Springing;
*Snipers Headband - This item would be a headband with the Snipers Eye spell, usable once per day. It would grant all of the abilities of the spell (including the ranged sneak attack 60', & Ranged death atack 30'). I'm not sure what the cost of this item would be though, as I really stink at calculating magic item costs. I figured for the spell it would be around 56,000 gp (lvl4 spell, lvl 7 caster), but useable only once per day (divide 56,000 by 5) = 11,200?? I was also thinking of having it only be useable by either evil characters or assassins, but I have no Idea of how that would affect the cost. If I'm total off on the price of this item please let me know.
Also, have I gone overboard with this character? I'm not sure he would fit the feel of RttToEE. Also I am not sure how the bow i gave him would work either. I used the Magic Bow from S&F as a base and increased the enchantment bonus and the Str bonus. How does the True Strike work from that bow (sorry, I forgot the name of it)?
I encourage any comments or suggestions anyone has. I want to throw something like this at my characters but am not sure if I should.
Thanks.
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